Episode 8: It wasn’t that bad!
Chase: *Gameshow music playing* Welcome back to Trait, Trauma, or PTSD. For those of you just tuning in, we give contestants scenarios and they have to pick if it's a trait to autism or ADHD, trauma, or PTSD. Today's contestant is Courn and they are playing for a lifelong diagnosis of depression and anxiety. Alright Courn, we're down to your final three scenarios, are you ready?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Great. First scenario. This person eats the same four foods their entire life. Is it a trait, trauma, or PTSD?
Courn: I'm gonna have to go with autism?
Chase: *Buzzer* Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong! All three.
Courn: Awwwh.
Chase: Okay, moving on to scenario number 2. This person goes out of their way all the time to prioritize others' comforts at their own expense.
Courn: Mmmm, I'm gonna say trauma.
Chase: Wait for... The booth? *Buzzer* They said wrong, all 3! Really not doing great here, Courn. Let's hope you get a win on this final scenario. Ready? Scenario number 3. This person usually thinks the situation is way worse than reality, often gauging the tone and assuming someone is upset with them. Is it an autism or ADHD trait? Is it trauma? Or is it PTSD? Think carefully. A lot is on the line here.
Courn: PTSD?
Chase: *Buzzer* Courn, I'm so sorry. Wrong. It was all 3. We were looking for all 3 answers. Trait, trauma, and PTSD. Well, congratulations. You have won a lifetime diagnosis of depression and anxiety. We'll see you back here next week folks. Have a great night. *Gameshow music plays and fades off*
Chase: While I was getting my ADHD diagnosis, the psychologist spent a lot of time getting to know and having more understanding around certain experiences in my life because it was unclear if those things were originating from a trauma like I had growing up, or if it was truly linked to like the ADHD, or if it was kind of both. I don't know if you had that experience with anything of your, you didn't get a diagnosis, but if you had any experiences like that, I can give my example and then we can go into that maybe. But like, I had a pretty big part, like bout of my life where I had a lot of reckless, impulsive behavior that put me in a lot of dangerous situations. And so that like lack of impulse control meant that I did a lot of things that were like really seemed fun and cool and exciting, but like really were super dangerous. But then also that danger kind of made them super exciting. But that could be because of the lack of impulse control with ADHD. But it could also have been from the trauma and the way I was raised in a cult and like that was my response to that trauma was to go and do these things because I finally could or I finally had the ability to. So I had these like a lot of overlapping scenarios that I would not have thought were maybe tied to the ADHD because I would have thought it was like a trauma, but the trauma could have come from like the anxiety not being treated the ADHD. Like they're all like this, like which came first, the chicken or the egg, and so like I wanted to talk about that a bit more. Did you have any experiences similar to that?
Courn: Yeah, I'd say early in my discovery process, actually, one of the big things that led me into my discovery process for autism was trying to understand my eating disorder and some of the problems I had with food. I have a very selective diet. And at some point I was only eating like 3 or 4 foods, and when me and my therapist were trying to get to the bottom of that, they kind of uncovered that like, I did have a lot of trauma related to food. It wasn't necessarily with my family, but with friends and other people forcing me to eat food as a kid that I did not want to. That led to these repeated traumatic experiences where I had a hard time trusting new food. But on the reverse side, as we discovered that I was autistic, the reasons why I had such a limited diet in the first place is because I had all these heightened sensory sensitivities to food. I had a very restrictive diet because most textures just did not agree with my brain. And as we were kind of unpacking this, it was actually really hard to understand like what caused what? Like there's so much intertwining of like food trauma as well that comes with being an autistic person. Also someone with ADHD as well. There's a lot of sensory sensitivities that come with that that overlap. And as we looked at it more, the answer just ended up being that it was both, which is kind of like a lame answer. But I don't think so many people realize that when you're an autistic person, you have ADHD and your needs are unmet, you undergo trauma. This quite literally leads into PTSD patterns. Like we quite literally see people reacting lifelong ways to this trauma as if it was a major stress. When it can be what is seemingly a pretty minor event, these things cascade on top of each other. We're actually more likely to develop PTSD from it.
Chase: Yes, I mean there's I'm pretty sure there are countless studies and reports being done of like how minorities and disabled folks and folks of the LGBTQ community are at so much more risk for these things and likely to be diagnosed and have these things attributed with them.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: For sure! We can link some of the studies I'm sure it's quite the common like discourse right now, but all those things can like muddy the waters and create like some confusion.
Courn: Yeah, I think there's also, there's just been a prevalence of people that have been misdiagnosed and not necessarily misdiagnosed but they missed a diagnosis of autism or ADHD because they were diagnosed with PTSD first-
Chase: Correct, yeah!
Courn: Which can show a lot of same traits as someone who's autistic. Like you could still have this very like heightened sensitivity, you could have a heightened sensitivity. You could have impulse control issues. You're gonna have increased anxiety, fear. You're gonna be more sensitive and vulnerable to trauma, you may have difficulty regulating your emotions, you may engage in dangerous behavior like self-harm and substance abuse. All these things like can manifest the same from an outsider perspective, but when we look deeper about why they are happening, it becomes quite clear what is a trauma, what is actually neurodivergence, what could be a trauma related to neurodivergence, which is where it becomes more of a gray area. But I do think it's important to kind of understand where these behaviors are coming from so we know when something is that something, that we need to fix, or it's something that we just need to better accommodate.
Chase: Right, because you can't really get your needs met or maybe get treatment for those that can get treatment for things like it's going to essentially be misdiagnosed and mistreated because it's kind of masking those other things. My sister actually is going through that a lot. Like she's a very anxious person. One, she's in a cult, but two, like she's not really treating her ADHD well, whether it's the doctor or her, whoever, like the ADHD is not being treated to like the best point it could, whether it's therapy, medication, whatever, like that treatment's not there and so like that anxiety is then heightened and then that anxiety heightens the ADHD and it like kind of just goes back and forth and it's a really, really tough cycle to break. It's even more challenging when you don't know that those two things are feeding into each other.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Because yeah, that had to be a huge question of mine of like, is this happening as a result of the anxiety or is it a result of the ADHD? Often both or two of those things in the same, but you got to peel those layers back and find the origin.
Courn: Yeah, that's why I just think it's so interesting that some of like the new studies that are coming out because we've known for quite a while that there's a really high co-occurrence, particularly between autism and PTSD. There's been a lot of research into it, not nearly enough. That's saying like, yes, autistic people are very likely to have PTSD and they didn't really know why this is. But a more recent experiment that was by the University of Queensland actually shows with different like mice subject, which I'm not an experimenter. I don't know how a mice shows the autistic brain, but a mouse is demonstrating the autistic brain. It showed that there was a heightened sensitivity to developing PTSD. So like, we also know that they're more likely to develop PTSD, but also they're more prone to develop it from a traumatic event compared to an allistic or neurotypical person. So like a single mild stress could develop PTSD, which we largely thought had to be this very large, like extreme stress, like it is in the general population. These minor events can cause PTSD for autistic and a lot of neurodivergent individuals, which is really interesting because I think it just proves that a lot of people aren't necessarily being misdiagnosed. They are just missing another diagnosis.
Chase: Right. It's not either or, it's and. Both things are true!
Courn: Yeah. I think that's what's been the discourse has been so long. Cause I'm like, I'm trying to decide if it's autism and ADHD, or it's PTSD. And sometimes it-
Chase: Why can't it be both?
Courn: Yeah. Sometimes it really doesn't matter. Like, I don't know the treatments, not just like treatment like you're trying to fix yourself, but the ways to like I don't know make yourself feel better and more accommodated-
Chase: Support, accommodate, needs met, how you get your needs met-
Courn: Yeah they're kind of kind of the same. Like you definitely should be doing some some type of therapy. You definitely should be accommodating yourself. Like I don't know reducing the risks and the triggers in your life. Like I think that goes for both things.
Chase: And but then also to have the privilege to be able to do that, it comes back around! Which we just touched on recently, but like yeah that's a good point, it doesn't have to be either or like you can have both things true at the same time.
Courn: Yeah and on that note we should talk about when things are different, like I've definitely had people talk to me and they're like, oh I think I have autism and PTSD, and it actually ends up being one or the other and it's very clear.
Chase: Like a singular event has happened and that has altered the behaviors and that's also what happened with a lot of my diagnosis or like the like studying of that and like the discovery of like okay was there specific traumas, was it a one big instance that has not happened, or maybe repeat instance, but like that really like shifted things rather than just the course of your life. Isn't like the DSM like don't they recognize like 5 years and under or there's like an age in which it's like starts to count those things. I don't want to quote it directly but like it does start to only count after certain points because of just life. Does that make sense?
Courn: I wasn't aware of that. It sounds interesting.
Chase: Oh yeah. Yeah like I think it's like something that you have to have like this whatever the criteria like multiple times before a certain age.
Courn: Oh that's what you need to have it early on set in life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chase: Yeah, yeah. It needs to have like multiple things. It doesn't, it can't just be like as an adult, like one thing happened because that could just, like you said, muddy the waters and make it look confusing and then you won't be able to get the right support for your needs.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: And that's what it comes down to.
Courn: Yes, that age element is actually very crucial because you'll notice that like PTSD symptoms of like, I don't know, being very hypervigilant, having these flashbacks of trauma, being super anxious, you can usually pinpoint to when they started. And you may not know what that event is. It could be a series of events, but I'm like, if you weren't like that when you were a child, it is very likely that that is a trauma response. That is not something you were inherently born with. But with things like autism and ADHD, they are quite literally neurological differences. Like people talk about the social anxiety part being a big part of PTSD. Like if you have trauma related to, you know, losing a friendship over communication, that could make you super people pleasing, and acting very kind to people when maybe you shouldn't be. But that's completely different than like, I don't know, being an autistic person who's just missing social cues. And like while the results may be the same and you becoming very hyper vigilant and aware of talking to people, the reasons are different. There's a difference between not wanting to talk to someone because you're afraid they're going to harass you and physically not being able to match their pace of conversation. And sometimes it is both. There is distinctions to be made if you're trying to figure out if it is one or the other. But you know sometimes it's also both. And that's the case for me. Like, I don't know, I went through therapy first for PTSD, which is kind of a wild story because I was being attacked by my dog. Plot twist, my dog hated me several years ago. It's not a dog I have anymore. It was a corgi that I affectionately called a killer corgi that was literally attacking me on a weekly basis leaving me with bruises. Like bloody stuff all over my legs. It was absolutely horrible. We finally got rid of that dog, but like I was perpetually terrified of dogs
Chase: Traumatized!
Courn: TYeah, I would have these really bad panic attacks around dogs. I couldn't have my bare feet around dogs anymore. I had to be wearing shoes at all times. If I went to other people's houses and they had dogs, I went to therapy for this because I was like, this is really bothering me. They're like, Yeah, you got some PTSD from this.
Chase: Dogs shouldn't mess you up this hard. But they did!
Courn: No. And then we peeled back those layers and actually turns out I had a lot of like complex PTSD from the way I was treated growing up. A lot of misogyny, the way I was emotionally and verbally abused by my father also had impacts on me that were, even when I got past this trauma of literally being attacked by a dog, which is a very like physical thing that I knew could not happen again without being in the right place, I was still getting these really intense flashbacks and panic attacks over stuff that happened in my childhood. Yeah, it turns out that's PTSD. And what people won't tell you is that, you know, a lot of like autism traits cause these things, not directly, but the way I was treated as a child, I would often more likely to be abused and harassed. I was more vulnerable. I did things that people did not like, and that gave them an invitation to harass me and attack me, which then led to these patterns of trauma that led me to be a very like recessive adult, always being very hyper aware of how other people are around me, kind of like monitoring their emotions, their tone, the way they're walking. Like those are very much trauma responses. They're not inherent to autism or ADHD. They become inherent when you grow up in a world that is not friendly for you, one that is very hostile to you.
Chase: Absolutely. I did not want to interrupt because you were going on a really good roll.
Courn: I was like, I was really ranty. So I appreciate that!
Chase: No, it was great. I was sitting here nodding, so I was like let me give you the social cue that like this is great and like I'm, I'm in for it. So yeah, it's really interesting, because I think in this regard like this might be one of the few times like our ADHD/autism, kind of not our autism, your autism, your ADHD, and like my ADHD very separate so I think there are we talked about those overlaps but like specifically for this, this is like yeah it's like very separate as to those types of traumas that we experience because of those things or like vice versa. Yeah, that's wild I mean it just it literally just sets off such a chain reaction and almost like in my head it starts kind of this like swing that gets like bigger and bigger and larger each time. Cause that's just how trauma works in general. You have one traumatic thing, like your body is wired to survive and learn from those and navigate differently. So you have one thing happen to you, most of the time people are like, oh I didn't like that, this didn't feel good, let me do X, Y, and Z to prevent that or put protections up and then either you're faced with that again and you protect yourself or you don't and it just creates those like layers and layers and layers and it's almost like just like a, unfortunately, like a scab that you just kind of keep picking at right like and it kind of just gets worse and worse and never actually heals in a way so you have to, it's gross but like it's terrible! Again this is a world not made for us. Like we're living in a world that's not at all structured to support us and like allow people like us to thrive.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: How horrible. What a dark turn!
Courn: Honestly, I think it makes it really hard to like, I don't know, address what those root causes are. Cause I feel like as I've unpeeled some of my trauma, it comes back to how people treated me in response to autistic traits. And like, there's not really a way to like unpack that. It's like, oh, I wish those people didn't do those things to me. And I know inherently now as an adult that I was not flawed, that I was okay in the way I acted. But it's like, those pressures are still there. People are still harassing people for acting these ways. So it's really hard to like, I don't know, combat these patterns of trauma responses.
Chase: Breaking the cycle of trauma.
Courn: Yeah, It's really hard. Cause I'm like, it's not just you. It is quite literally the way society is treating you, which makes it almost like an impossible task to heal from a trauma.
Chase: Because you were plopped into this society and it's just existing and like you have no power to really change society until much later in life in which you have already received so much trauma and anxiety and like scars and you're just like what's the point? At some point, because you're like the system's huge but hopefully by having these conversations more it gets more exposure and like more people talking so people can learn and maybe make some small changes and I don't know in our lifetime but-
Courn: There's a lot of misinformation around CPTSD and PTSD. Just in that people think that it has to be this very like traumatic event that has-
Chase: Like went to war.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Soldiers of war.
Chase: That's literally what people think of like, you know, like, oh yeah, soldier like they should have PTSD.
Chase: Or like, witnessed a murder!
Courn: Yeah, like and there's a lot of valid reasons why people have PTSD. It can seem as something as like, I don't know, trivial as like being forced to eat a food. It can be a dog attack. It can be sexual abuse.
Chase: It's not trivial. All trauma is valid here, Courn.
Courn: Yeah. So then I think it's, this to me ties a lot to generational trauma and that I feel like my parents, for example, can't really understand how I would have PTSD as someone who grew up in like a pretty affluent home and from their point of view had like a pretty good-
Chase: Such a better life than us!
Courn: Yes. And it's just like hard to explain to them, like I've told my dad before. I haven't explicitly told him that he gave me PTSD even though that's what my therapist and doctor would say. But it's like even me just saying you gave me trauma that has scarred me-
Chase: You abused me!
Courn: Yes, the word abuse, that word has always been so hard with my dad, because he's just like I didn't physically hit you, which he actually did that a couple times, but not to that not to that extreme, but he verbally and emotionally abused me so much as a child, that I'm like I have these permanent scars and it's really hard to start unpacking that when a parent isn't willing to do that. And it's sad that so much of our childhood trauma comes down to parents because that is who is around you all the time. That is supposed to be the person you will be able to turn to when things are going wrong-
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: And when they are the one perpetuating it, they cannot help you. That whole support system, it just breaks down and people make these janky, I don't know support systems, and we make all these trauma behaviors to make up for it.
Chase: Well, and then that leads to how many like autistic/ADHD kids, and now adults realize this and literally opt to cut off ties with their families and parents, like because it's just not worth it and it's not serving, and it's not giving any of that support and it never did and it quite possibly never will. And that's like that's like such a sadness, that you have to process and cope, and not cope ,what's the word I'm looking for, grieve! it's a loss you have to grieve and like it's really shitty so it's quite the dark turn and it's a quite a heavy turn but it's so so valid. Cause our parents don't even like recognize that emotional and mental abuse are a thing. Like, let's just even talk from there. It's kind of just like not even acknowledging that there's a problem. Because again, it was, oh, they were so much better. My parents do this too. My mom specifically was like the first to martyr and be martyred and be like, well, I was so much better than my mom and oh like, at least it's getting better. Like no, it shouldn't happen to begin with folks, like no parent is perfect. Perfection is not the standard. But like god dang, you can do a lot better than that folks! To the point where like we got to break these cycles and to have no awareness and or willingness to see what you did wrong and make it right and then to just like gaslight you into being like, no I was fine, like you just made that up or whatever else and like no it wasn't that bad and like just invalidate your experience It ties into just literally not being worth it.
Courn: Yeah, it feels like it's clearly a defense mechanism, I feel like for a lot of parents, but I also think from a child's perspective, it immediately shows a lack of respect. And when someone tells you that something you've done has made them feel a way, and regardless of if you feel like your actions have done that, you need to acknowledge that person is telling you, your actions made me feel this way. Like clearly something happened. Like you need to look into that. Like people don't just come up to tell you, like you traumatized me out of nowhere. Like no one is trying to start that beef with their parents. Like respectfully.
Chase: No, absolutely not. I mean I may like to fight people but like god that's not a fight I want to be having nor is that really a fight that I even want to win. Like that's not kind of a fight that you even want to have a win over. Like that's just not what you want to do. I want to go back to rejection sensitive dysphoria because that is like a huge overlap with or at least a big trait for ADHD and like how that ties into so much trauma. It is not just being scared of not fitting in like there is a giant like emotional reaction for prolonged periods of time that caused big large-body reactions, because of like having a warped perspective on the acceptance or like not acceptance of something. And so I feel like because of that fear, for so many of us, and I'll just speak for me, like I changed so many of my behaviors and put myself in so many situations that caused tons of trauma that required a lot of therapy to unpack, that likely could have been prevented or even reduced if I had my needs met earlier in life. Granted, there's also this giant cult layer from my piece that there would have never been met and how that plays into like a trauma you experience.
Courn: Yeah, I think there's also just, like, I don't know, a misunderstanding of like, I don't know, RSD being like these very grand, dramatic things like, oh, someone told me no, I'm just going to start bawling my eyes out. Like, I don't think people understand that, like, sometimes it can quite look like that. Sometimes it's a lot more subtle of just like catastrophizing things. Like just assuming that everything's gonna turn out the worst. That's a big part of RSD. Sometimes that looks like very external things. Sometimes it looks very internal. But I think a missing part is that people don't talk about it. There usually is like a reason why people feel this way. Like there's a history of trauma. There's a history of rejection that had, what would have been-
Chase: Over and over and over!
Courn: Yes. Serious consequences were very vital at that time. Like-
Chase: Right. Like not being accepted and having that rejection would have resulted in potentially very life threatening and very dangerous like consequences is what you're saying.
Courn: Yeah. And I think, I don't think people realize how much, I think a lot of that starts with your family and how this kind of like amplifies. Cause you're like, oh, if my own, you know, parents can't respect me, if they don't understand me, then how can I respect myself? And how suddenly it's applied, oh, to this friend, could I hang out with you? Oh, is it because they hate me like my parents do, which means I'm inadequate and how it kind of just snowballs into all these other thoughts. And like, it feels very logical at the time, Looking back, you're like, oh, that really doesn't make sense. But also telling someone they're overreacting doesn't make them react any less. Like, that's not helpful.
Chase: Yeah! Absolutely!
Courn: I feel like I've just been called a, like a drama queen my entire life. And I-
Chase: It's cause you're a Gemini.
Courn: *Sighs* That's fair. But I respectfully, I hate that. Cause that's just what my dad always called me. Oh you're being so dramatic about everything and like
Chase: Wow!
Courn: I wasn't being dramatic. I had needs and I expressed when I was uncomfortable with things. Yeah and that turns into trauma when you don't deal with it as a child. So.
Chase: Dang, I've never met your dad, but every time we talk about him, I get like, oh, I'm going to fight this guy. You don't know how often I'm thinking about scenarios in my head in which I'm gonna fight someone and how I'm gonna win. I do this all the time. Literally how I'm going to sleep. I'm on public transit with my partner and I'm just thinking like, okay, if this person comes here, I'm gonna do this.
Courn: Straight for the jugular!
Chase: Literally I'm like kneecap, groin, eyeballs, literally so many things just take someone out.
Courn: I also love that this is kind of relevant because it is definitely like a trauma response!
Chase: I was just about to say, it's a trauma response because if you like are in physical danger like you don't always react how you want to or how you maybe would want to and so like something might happen and later on you're like well if I just would have done this, I would have been safe or whatever. And like those rumination thoughts, like that is also not typical. That is not something healthy, like balanced folks should be doing.
Courn: Yeah. I don't think of ways I can fight people, but I do always look for the nearest escape. And I have things about like when I sit at restaurants I always have to be facing the exit.
Chase: Yeah my wife is like that.
Courn: And I always have to be able to like see an escape route. I really hate being on transit and stuff because there's not an easy escape. I'm very flighty. I want to be able to leave a place at any time in case something goes down.
Chase: You know, Hawaiians always back into the parking spot and I thought it was like a cool thing. I honestly think part of it's like a danger and like safety thing, because you can leave and zoop zoop out of a spot real quick if you're backed in. So I always wonder about little things like that where you're like, oh it's just kind of like a cultural thing when really what if it was originated in like some drama stuff?
Courn: I've never heard of that. That's so funny!
Chase: Okay, that's a whole tangent. It's a whole tangent, but I think about those little things. Somebody said that one time, they're like, I back into a spot, yeah, ha ha, cause Hawaiians do that, but like, also like I'm a gay man of color. Like I live in a rural area. Like if I need to leave, I need to be near the exit and just zoom out, you know?
Courn: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just can't back into a spot.
Chase: Not my father teaching me to do it since I turned 16. Literally like the moment I could drive. He was like, this is how you do it. We backed and they back into their garage.
Courn: I can parallel park like a pro, but I can not back into spots. No one taught me how and the angles. I'm like, oh, steering wheel, turn left, but go right. I have bad motor skills.
Chase: So you can't drive a boat is what you're saying?
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Dang. Okay.
Courn: People may try to blame the Asian-ness, but it's actually the autism. Respectfully, it's the motor skills. I'm not good with directions.
Chase: I was going to make a joke about it being about because you're a woman, but that doesn't even apply.
Courn: It's a double. It's a double. No, it doesn't even apply anymore.
Chase: Asian woman. Wrong. Wrong.
Courn: I'm just a bad driver because I'm a bad driver. You ever think that maybe I just didn't practice enough because my dad didn't want to let me drive as a high schooler?
Chase: Yeah, cuz your dad sucks.
Courn: But guess what? I haven't got any any accidents that I caused, so!
Chase: Congrats! A Lot of this though. I mean just like coming back a little bit, like reminds me of like not having boundaries. Like you know so much of like the traumas happen because there's no boundaries. There's no boundaries in place because of the trauma or traits or any of the things and like, you know, if only you could have like set some boundaries like you likely could protect yourself, but like that it's so much easier to just say that and it's not just that easy, but like how much as society like shames and does everything they can to just destroy and dismantle boundaries for everyone to continue to hold power over people but like if you can hold those boundaries, you are more likely to be safe and keep yourself out of harm. Not for sure, I'm not a doctor, but like, you know, how much of that of like just respecting boundaries could really change the trauma we experience.
Courn: I also just think, I don't know, I didn't know how to set boundaries and that's on not having autonomy as a child to learn todo those things.
Chase: And that's on living in a cult.
Courn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chase: That's true. The lack of autonomy and like not being able to have boundaries.
Courn: Yeah. It makes it really hard to enforce as an adult. And then it's really easy to give in to people the second someone's like, oh, you're being difficult. Like it's easy just to like cave in and be like, okay, okay, okay. But like-
Chase: Did your parents just barge into your room without knocking?
Courn: Yes, all the time.
Chase: Really? I wasn't really allowed to close my door much.
Courn: I did close my door a lot because I didn't like the sound, because I was right next to the living room. I didn't like hearing their TV, so I always keep it closed. But like my dad would just like bust in, something mad, like throw something, and then just run out. And I'm like, okay, you good?
Chase: Yeah, my dad did that to my sister a lot, unfortunately.
Courn: Don't bust in on your child's room, respectfully, especially like teenagers. Don't do that. You're gonna find something you don't like.
Chase: You don't wanna bust in on those.
Courn: But I don't know, I did lock my door as a kid cause I had a lot of trauma of people coming in at night and things like that. And I still lock my door a lot as an adult. It's taken me a long time to unlearn that because I know it's a fire hazard so that is why I've ultimately stopped doing it.
Chase: I didn't know it was a fire hazard.
Courn: It's just like mainly when you live in like an apartment building so like you know, if the apartment catches on fire you go night-night because the smoke got to you first and your neighbor wants to help you-
Chase: They're not gonna like bust down the door, I guess the inside door?
Courn: Like your roommate or something like they could like get into your bedroom and get you out if you had it locked.
Chase: They say sleeping with the bedroom door shut does prevent fires from coming in.
Courn: Oh that's true too!
Chase: So like doors are also in place as like a fire preventative. So it prevents fires from spreading into like rooms. So like there's another thing of like leaving your door shut. Huge tangent!
Courn: I did not know fire safety was gonna be on today's agenda, but I'm here for it!
Chase: I'm here for it. I love it Going back to like the parents shitty parents, specifically one thing I also struggled with and like not having access to maybe like my parents at the time of getting diagnosed or even like my path my discovery path to diagnosis was like not having that relationship with my folks. Like I couldn't ask them things about how I was as a kid because I have no recollection of what I was like pre 5 years old you know, 1 to 5, I don't have that memory all the time, so that definitely made it tricky to like not know and have to guess and have to use markers later in life which then kind of muddy the water because if like you said if this was happening like since that you were born and it's like oh yeah, it's like since the time you could walk like you never walked without shoes on or you always wanted to be barefoot because you hated socks or something like those things could like rule in favor of your diagnosis so much faster and so much easier but if you don't have access to that like you gotta figure it out, it's tougher it's hard.
Courn: Correct and some like practitioners will not diagnose without having a parent on board and that was definitely a factor for me.
Chase: Is that an autism thing?
Courn: Yeah it's particularly for autism.
Chase: I was gonna say that's not ADHD.
Courn: Yeah, it is for autism because they want everything to be present in your childhood and I know that I could never get my mom to help nor do I think that she'd be super helpful because she's just super contradicting things all the time. She used to tell me all the time I was a kid I was such a difficult child and it's so weird because now she like forgot. She's like, oh yeah, you were an easy child. What do you mean? You used to tell me all the time how I'd only drink apple juice and you thought all my teeth were gonna rot out and I wouldn't eat the baby formula and I'm like, your selective memory is confusing me because like that's what I remember.
Chase: So almost like didn't help you. Like almost didn't help your...
Courn: Yeah, so it's very unhelpful. I'll try to bring stuff up with my mom now and she just like genuinely doesn't remember. You know in her defense she had three kids. I was the last one so maybe it's just too much.
Chase: You were the forgotten child.
Courn: Yeah. My middle brother would not agree with that.
Chase: Oh, that oh, yeah-
Courn: That's the true forgotten child.
Chase: That's fair! Oftentimes sleeping issues have a lot of overlap with ADHD traits, trauma, PTSD, etc. And it's funny if on any of the quizzes or like maybe like diagnosis criteria if it was like trouble sleeping, I would almost I would never put yes, like I'd be like no, I sleep great like a moment I hit the pillow I'm out. So I'd be like, oh it's not something overlaps, but there's more. I didn't have a hard time sleeping not because of like, oh it was like so easy to fall asleep but like I literally was so anxious that I went the other way and I worked myself to the point of exhaustion in which I then would hit the pillow and go straight to sleep. So like did I have sleeping issues? No. But like also hitting the pillow, like going to bed immediately just because I was so exhausted because I was anxious and I didn't want to be anxious or like I was doing all of these things to try to to like mediate all of the needs that weren't being met like resulted in that exhaustion and so could I put sleeping issues? I don't know, maybe, but it's really interesting when you like zoom out and think of those three things because I might have actually had sleeping issues but like it was masked by this other stuff.
Courn: Right and I mean sleeping issues too is like a common trait for so many things, there's so many different reasons why you could have sleeping issues. I have always had trouble sleeping. I'm not gonna lie. I can fall, I'm that type of person who can fall asleep anywhere, which is a blessing and a curse. So I'm that person who has their mouth open and is bobbing their head on the train.
Chase: On the airplane?
Courn: Yes. I hate that, I am that person. I have a little pillow now, so I don't do that. But I've just never been able to have good consistent long sleeps. I've always been like plagued with like the weirdest ass nightmares my entire life and as an adult like I literally get nightmares of like traumas I experienced as a kid like different assaults and things like that. Not a fun time to relive as an adult. But I would just wake up in the middle of the night and then I'd start like thinking about all the things I'd do the next day which would then lead me spiraling, planning out an entire schedule that I know I can't do, whatever, in that next 12 hours. So I would just stay up from 2 a.m. To 7 a.m. Trying to sleep, overthinking, and by the time my alarm goes off, I'm so burnt out, that I'm not functional for the rest of the day, and I still do that a lot as an adult, and it sucks because when you have sleeping issues, you literally cannot recoup. Like it is one of those things that amplifies every single symptom you are having and will make you feel so unhealthy. Like you just feel like shit your body, mentally, physically.
Chase: Eating is then tough and then not eating you feel worse like everything starts to amplify and exponentially get worse.
Courn: Yes and as someone who's tried so many different type of sleeping medicines. I hate when people try to give me recommendations because I've tried everything, natural, over-the-counter meds.
Chase: Have you tried putting Vaseline over your nose?
Courn: No, I have not because I'm not insane. But I've tried so many things and they don't work and it's really frustrating because so many times I go to the doctor with all these problems related to like, I don't know, trauma. I was struggling with a lot of autistic traits in my early 20s and they're just like, well, you first need to get a good night's sleep. And I'm like-
Chase: Have you tried drinking water?
Courn: What do you think I'm doing? You're like, you need to reduce your screen time. Try working out before bed. Actually don't do that because it gets your adrenaline going.
Chase: Yeah, not good. That's a terrible, what? Who's giving you that advice?
Courn: I've gotten both those pieces of advice that were just like, you need to work out more and then they're like closer to bed because then you'll be exhausted. But if it's too close and your adrenaline is going and-
Chase: Drink enough water, but don't drink too much because then you'll be diluted.
Courn: Yeah and then I-
Chase: Eat enough vegetables but don't eat too many because I'm gonna be bloated and constipated.
Courn: I have a horrible bladder. So I'm like oh if you drink too much water before bed then you'll wake up and have to use the bathroom-
Chase: And that's gonna mess up your sleep even more.
Courn: Yep and I feel like it's the same deal with stomach problems too. I've had a lot of people tell me that it's all in my head or that it's like anxiety around it but I'm like I've had chronic IBS and stomach problems my entire life. Like there's a co-connection between autism and ADHD. Some people even see it say it's related to trauma stuff too, like literally it starts affecting your body. Some people will say it's a microbiome in your gut, which I learned this past week, but they all suck.
Chase: Truly. Truly. Yeah.
Chase: Okay, well, on that note, I gotta go unpack my mommy issues. So bye!
Courn: Bye!
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences. And while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!