Episode 6: 1-2-3 look away
Chase: Welcome to Neurotakes. I'm Chase.
Courn: I'm Courn. Let's get into it.
Chase: Courn, I do have one joke I'm gonna tell you to start this episode.
Courn: Oh no. Do I need to brace myself?
Chase: No, you don't. I think it's funny. If you were to be any type of tape, what tape would you be? Masking tape.
Courn: Okay, not me over here. Like I really was just like, okay what would be the best answer? And I was like duct tape isn't very versatile, scotch tape is very weak. I wasn't even thinking about where the joke was going. I legitimately thought that was a good question.
Chase: Masking tape. Cause that's what we talking about today. I mimicked a lot as a kid and teenager into adolescent life. And it wasn't until I became an adult and got my diagnosis and realized, that's not something other people do to the degree that I did.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Like bro, I'm talking like TV characters. I would like get the same outfits they would wear on shows and like talk to the same, listen to the same music they had on the show. And like, I would just envelop into some characters just because I wasn't sure what to be doing. And was like, oh, society accepts and loves these characters like, I'm just going to become them. And like, then I'll be accepted and loved and look at that, I won't be lonely and all the friends. So the mimicking being just like an ADHD trait.
Courn: I relate so much. Yeah, I mean, also these traits are like very shared and there's a lot of crossover between autism and ADHD. And I feel like that one is a particularly strong crossover. But yes, I did that so much that I remember my best friend in second grade told me, they're like, please stop copying me. They're like, I don't know what to do. They're like, you first started dressing like me, then you started acting like me, and then you started liking the people I like, and then you start talking like me. And I just was like, is that not what you do? I did that so much times. Like, I don't know, I was never like the, I feel like there's the core best friend, and then there's like the side best friend, and I was a side best friend for most of the time growing up so like I had to latch on to them and like, be like them. Like I was the groupie friend, it's just embarrassing to look back at because I do remember like I don't know crying to my mom. I'm just like if I don't get this you know Hollister shirt, no one's gonna like me and-
Chase: The fact you could afford Hollister says a lot, Courn.
Courn: The thing is my parents didn't even buy that for me, I had to go buy the Aeropostale, like the 5 for 20.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Which kids did not think were cool. I didn't even get the Hollister shirt and we were like fairly rich too. So my parents are just assholes.
Chase: I always had to get the hand-me-down ones, but.
Courn: But the mimicking is so hard. And I feel like I less started mimicking people around me and then I definitely started mimicking celebrities and a lot of like Disney stars and Nickelodeon stars. Cause I was like, oh, they're so cool. Like I had a whole phase where I wanted to be Hannah Montana Like not-
Chase: No way!
Courn: Yeah, like not like, I don't know, mentally, but I like wanted to dress like Hannah Montana. Exactly. So I was putting together like those ridiculous outfits she had.
Chase: They're very eclectic outfits. Rocker eclectic.
Courn: They were not cool even for the time at school.
Chase: A lot of judgment on those folks who liked that show.
Courn: Yeah. But the behavior thing is always weird too because I feel like I've noticed a lot with a lot of my autistic/ADHD friends. We start hanging out a lot. We start sounding alike. We start using the same words and it's really hard to distinguish. Like I'm always asking myself when I pick up a new phrase, like my spouse is always like, who'd you get that from? Like every time he's just like, I know you didn't come up with that. Who'd you get that from? And like, sometimes it's a TikTok. Sometimes it's a friend. Recently it's a lot from you. I feel like now I'm talking like you.
Chase: Hey, let's go. I'll take it. Be like Chase.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: What a compliment. I feel so flattered.
Courn: But then I think like, I don't know, why did we start mimicking? And I don't know what it was like for you, but I feel like a lot of it, some of it was trauma-based for me. I think I realized early on that people did not like how I was, as I was. And I don't know, I think I necessarily like bully bullied, but people just like, man, you're freaking weird. And like the things you like are weird. The way you talk is weird. And I just was like, man, I just want to pass for normal. I don't know. I don't know why I also just deeply thought that everyone else was trying very hard to be normal all the time and they're not. I think that's what gets me. And like, that goes far beyond mimicking. I'm just like timing, eye contact, staying still.
Chase: Yeah, you know, my wife will probably relate a lot more to those experiences from the tism side of things. But yeah, my wife will relay a lot of similar things and just be like, oh, I thought this. No. Oh, Ok. Oh, no, that was not my experience as a kid or like looking back. Yeah, that's okay. So you thought like everyone else was trying to be normal.
Courn: Yes. Or I don't know if I just thought, I just assumed that there was more people or like that every weird kid was also on the same level as me, was just like, man, I'm trying so hard and I can't fit in. I don't know why? I'm mimicking them.
Chase: That's very interesting.
Courn: Like it just became very apparent young that people would be like, oh, your eye contact is weird. The way you talk is weird. And I just was like, I didn't know why.
Chase: And you didn't know how to like change it to essentially fit in and mask to like be socially accepted.
Courn: Yeah and so I think I really struggled in elementary school. Like I was not popular when I was younger whatsoever. Like I was weird and people thought I was weird and then as I got to high school, I think that's when I figured it out. I was like, I was mimicking the popular girls in schools. Like, how do they walk? How do they dress? How do they treat other people? And like, I kind of became an asshole because I was just like, oh, I want to be like them. And it got a response. So that's the thing about masking. A lot of it doesn't feel super intentional. A lot of it's just like you start picking up behaviors that people are doing.
Chase: Yeah, so a lot of it's like semi-unconscious or like in your, it's not always in your unconscious. It's like more of that subconscious or just kind of in between.
Courn: I think it's different for everyone, but definitely it was a mix. There's definitely some trauma response in there where you're just like, oh, I just want to be safe and I want people to treat me right. But yeah, I had like a million systems to do things. Like I just remember being like, okay, this is going to sound so weird, but someone made a comment that I have my mouth open a lot. I'm a mouth breather and that's embarrassing. So I used to at all times during school ,hold my mouth closed and be genuinely struggling to breathe. And I still did in college. I still did it in work. It's something I have to consciously unlearn now. And I know that like mouth breathing is bad for you and there's ways to correct that. But yeah, I have a deviated septum and other things. So I can't-
Chase: I was just gonna ask! Is that like a medical thing? I don't feel like that's actually something.
Courn: No, I physically cannot breathe out of my nose.
Chase: That doesn't feel like something you could change.
Courn: But I thought other people were just like, you know, doing all these things.
Chase: Like all these special breathing techniques to like become a better breather.
Courn: Like, I don't know, timing eye contact and stuff. I've always made too long of eye contact. I didn't understand that you had to stop. So I would time I go 1-2-3, look away, look away, 1-2-3, and all these little like hymns and things.
Chase: Woah! How did you manage to keep up with conversation and do that?
Courn: I didn't.
Chase: I was going to say!
Courn: I didn't. Which I think is funny because so many people would tell me they're just like, I feel like you're a really bad listener or you're just like off and somewhere else, and I am! I'm over here trying to just like-
Chase: Day dreaming! to try to stay alive thinking about any other thing because it's way more exciting than what you're saying, Kyle!
Courn: Yeah I'm like oh I'm putting too much weight on my right leg my arm looks funky I should go to the other side.
Chase: What if I'm standing weird? Am I pushing my arms up?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Yeah. That's fair. I also did not like eye contact as a kid.
Courn: It's weird.
Chase: You know I spent so much of my childhood and adolescence and teenagehood in church, so I feel like there's like this extra layer of social stereotypes and expectations to where like it wasn't until yeah I was probably like maybe 10, 11ish, 12 to realize I was like, oh eye contact's weird! Like I don't like this and then I'm like where do I look and then like the panic of like looking around like oh and then they're looking at me looking around because then they look if I look somewhere else and like, oh, no, they caught on. And so there's that. But it's interesting you mentioned like it changed a lot in high school because I feel like that's the natural development of so much. So many kids like, you know, They're pretty authentically themselves in like the lower grades and like they haven't been bullied. They haven't pressured into like social stereotypes and social norms. And it isn't until like you've had like years of essentially being in a school system, right? And like expected to act a certain way. Then it's like you either figure it out and mask or you don't and you're outcast and then you're bullied or like and then you just do whatever you gotta do to survive and get through the school times.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: You know like...ughhh!
Courn: And I don't know if this is just like also like a newer generational thing, but I also just find out the time that I started heavily masking, I feel like it's just also when the internet got really popular was around the same time I made an Instagram account and was posting all the time and was like, oh man, all these other people, they look so natural on these social media things and I don't, I don't know, I've had people tell me that they're like you just look fake in every picture you take of yourself. And like I've heard people talk about this that it's like autistic picture-taking like we just look off. It was like people like it just like clock someone from a photo and I'm just like that is so insane, I don't know if there's a science behind that? It's just like little offness.
Chase: Well again, I think it's just people like they're expecting and like assuming something and it's not that and so they're like trying to explain that thing and or like expecting and being like everyone should be this way because I expect it and society expects this and like yeah. Dor the stuff we're talking about, no this stuff doesn't matter I expect society to be a certain way when it comes to values of like honesty and respect but like how you stand in a photo shouldn't fucking matter~
Courn: No it shouldn't, but it's like I don't know people clock those little things so quickly and then can latch on that to an excuse to not treat you as a person.
Chase: Well and it's interesting that you say like social media was coming up and like phones with internet at that time were also coming up because I feel like that's a whole other personality and life that you live online, right? Because it's like you pick and choose everything you post whether you intentionally do it or not. It's not real life. So you now have this internet personality and you also have an in-person and what if those things start to meld and like create those separate divisions. So it's tough.
Courn: I agree.
Chase: Like it's exhausting and you got to, it's just, it's confusing.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: But the fact that that's not the experience of like majority of people in the world is very surprising to me.
Courn: Yeah. I think it's hard for people because I think some people like in some ways, like I think most allistic and neurotypical people have usually like done some type of masking like to make yourself look more professional but it's like the length is so much shorter. The effects are pretty instant and I don't think people understand like the effects of like masking long-term like what that does to you, how it reprograms you, how it makes you constantly in a state of overstimulation.
Chase: Yeah and that's the difference, that we always want to like bring to a point on this show, and this podcast that like it's not just, oh I like their shoes so I'm wearing them too. Like no, it's like very anxiety-inducing it's a little obsessive in a way and like it's just a lot to then unpack and reverse!
Courn: Yeah and I think to that point like it's not always intentional A lot of it comes out of trauma responses. A lot of it just comes out of like trying to fit in. And a lot of them are safety responses, but it's not like I just decided one day, hey, I want to cosplay as a neurotypical today. Like it happens so gradually, you don't realize that that's what you're doing till you're like, you know, 20 years in and realizing that you have a system for everything you do in your life.
Chase: And it's very stressful. So that's like a piece to maybe like pause and like talk about more like it's very stressful to have these systems when they're not naturally a system that you want to live by, it's not natural how you live your life. Yeah, like it that's the difference as well right, it's like masking is, takes a lot of social mental and emotional energy. And so, all these systems you try to put in place to again, fit in, survive, all the other reasons. And there's some very valid reasons to mask, but they are ultimately not natural systems that exist within you.
Courn: No, and I think people also get confused with like what is a masking system and what is an accommodation. So I feel like an example of an accommodation would be like, oh, like, you know, I wear the same outfit set, like the same type of clothes every day. That's an accommodation for me. It makes it easier for me. Whereas something that's like, oh, you're masking, is you're practicing a conversation script hours in advance, days in advance, just keep practicing it. Like that doesn't necessarily make you perform better. That's to live up to a standard for someone else. So there's things that are centered around you versus other people and I see some people kind of like interchangeably talk about accommodations they made for themselves as masking behaviors and they're a little bit different even though like some are definitely connected.
Chase: Yeah and it can get a little confusing because you get these like layers that it could be this, it could be that, could be both, could be neither, like I definitely practiced some scripts like for conversations that I needed to have with employees or something. Part of it was because I've never had those types of conversations, so I need to prepare a little bit, but at the same time, I probably overprepared more than most people would have. You know, like I was almost memorizing certain things and like could say them word for word and just like, okay, this is how I'm gonna say it. This is how I'm gonna reflect. This is where I'm gonna enunciate and I'd like rehearse it with my wife. Like, should I say it this way? Should I pause here? And so like, that's when we start crossing into like, masking.
Courn: Yeah. And also like, once it starts getting pretty extreme, like, I don't know, I would practice facial expressions too with my conversation scripts. Cause like people would tell me like, you don't look sad enough or happy enough when you say stuff. So I'd be sitting there in the mirror practicing my happy laugh. You know, trying someone told me it looks more natural when you squint your eyebrows when you smile. But then someone said, you need to raise your eyebrows. I'm like, I don't know. How do you look happy? And yeah, and those things optically, they don't matter to me. They do matter to the way I'm being perceived and how I'm being treated. But I think when we talk about unmasking, like you don't wanna undo accommodations that are helpful for you. And also just the greater conversation that unmasking can be a big privilege. And that's its own thing. Like being safe and comfortable enough to be able to peel back those layers. Like I'm just saying there's so many people of color that literally have to mask for their safety when, you know, being unmasked can literally be a life or death situation get the police call on you.
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: Like you can literally be murdered in broad daylight for showing an autistic trait, having a meltdown-
Chase: Mm-hmm and being a person of color!
Courn: Yeah so I just feel like that should never be lost in this conversation when people talk about unmasking like, oh yeah you can just start doing it-
Chase: Just, just unmask, just try harder!
Courn: Yeah and I think even on smaller levels too like I think we understand the levels of access we get in society when we are masking like I feel like I've noticed the better jobs I get, the way colleagues treat me, way friends treat me when I act more neurotypical presenting. Like that's a big privilege and sometimes I don't want to lose out on those benefits and some people literally cannot afford to, that's you losing your job, vs you losing your life. Like they're different, but like unmasking can absolutely be a privilege and that should not be lost from this convo.
Chase: That's a hot take. Let's go.
Courn: And I think on the adverse side, if we talk about just masking in general being a privilege, and I think us being more like lower support needs, autistic and ADHD people, it's also a really important conversation to have. And that so many medium and high support need folks, like there's just no way for them to master traits. Either they don't have the ability to, or their traits are just so visually apparent that there's no way to hide it. And like what that means when you are never able to be perceived as neurotypical. How you get harassed as a child, how you get discriminated against as adults, even having diagnostic status, how you can be legally discriminated against at your workplace. So it's kind of that thing where it's like yeah, unmasking can be a privilege, masking can be a privilege in comparison to people who can't unmask. It's a really hard topic to have but that intersectionality is needed because autism and ADHD are both such a spectrum, in how people are impacted, how much of a disability it is to them. So yeah, masking can be really important, but not everyone can do it and that shouldn't be a given. I've heard people say that, oh, that should be autistic criteria, that people have to mask, as a way to like include lower support needs people and I'm just, like what do you mean there's so many autistic people who cannot mask their traits like-
Chase: Hold on I need a second process that that's just wild!
Courn: There's a lot of like it's hard because there's been this reverse thing where so long the predominant representation of autistic people was primarily high support needs autistic people. And then in recent years, we've seen a lot of pushback from low support needs people as that spectrum has widened and Asperger's syndrome is now part of autism and that terminology is not used. There's been a lot of pushback from low support needs, people being like, we want representation. We get things like Sheldon Cooper of the Big Bang Theory. We get these savant stereotypes. And also with that comes people saying like, oh, I'm not that type of autistic. Like I'm not the type that can't care for themself, the type, you know, that's like, use all these derogatory, like ableist words.
Chase: And has to have their things a certain way!
Courn: Yes, and there's been all these, there's been so many movements, there's historical context for aspie supremacy, for literal Nazis saying that they think autistic people who have savant abilities are like the future, that like it's a superpower.
Chase: Woah!
Courn: So you have to be really careful when you talk about uplifting traits that are only for low support needs autistic people. And I get really cautious of it as a low support needs autistic person that I'm not just like only talking about me and my experiences being like the epitome of autism experience, because like they are not. And we know that when people act and look more autistic when they have higher support needs, they are going to be more marginalized, and they usually need more help and more advocacy for them. So-
Chase: Absolutely!
Courn: That was a very long tangent.
Chase: It was a long tangent, but like it was, it needs to be said. It's very important to say those things. And I didn't want to interrupt because you were on a flow. It was just, I was like, yeah, I don't need to say anything.
Courn: I'm on a Courn rant!
Chase: You're going like, it's true. It's absolutely true.
Courn: And I think also too, It's very hard because I think all the platforms that elevate low support needs autistic people like Instagram, like TikTok, they reward people who have less disabilities. If you are verbal, you can perform better on camera. Like doing all these things that I feel like a lot of like non-speaking and non-verbal autistic people can't do. It is really hard to climb in the algorithm when you can not have that vocal aspect, when you have higher disabilities that make it hard for you to manage social media. Like there's so many barriers for medium and high support needs autistic people that make social media a very hard aspect to get representation and not saying we're talking about like major media movies film and stuff, like it's pretty hard to like I don't know be in Hollywood when people don't take your disability seriously or can accommodate you.
Chase: What kind of reminds me of what we talked about in like a recent previous episode where like you got to be girly enough but not too girly or like it's always like there's always just like a perfect balance it's never included on both ends of those like spectrum of traits with everything.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Because yeah it's like oh yeah we're including these disabled people but like you said it's not the highly impacted disabled people. It's like the ones who are just barely touching this, you know, it's like just a little bit. So we can still say it's included and like virtue signal but like not actually include the vast majority that maybe represent those groups.
Courn: Yeah and I think comparison I always use that's different but I think is similar just like when we're talking about like, oh, if I wanted to have proper BIPOC representation, who would that include? Like, clearly you need Black and Indigenous people in there, but people will have BIPOC panels all the time and there's Asian people, there's, you know, Latin people, Hispanic people, people who aren't Black and Indigenous. And like those voices matter, but like in the context, what are you calling? What is your point of view? Like you need to make sure you're having a good representation. We know that Black and Indigenous people are higher impacted by racism and systems of oppression. And that doesn't take away from other races, but it's definitely something to like have centered in that convo. And it doesn't mean like, oh, you're more, you're more autistic, you're less autistic. Like everything's a spectrum. It's the same thing with race. Everything's different. But I think we could acknowledge how different experiences impact you differently.
Chase: They impact everyone differently and like you said though, that's important to note that we're just speaking from our experiences. But we also maybe know things, or have heard of other people having experiences and have like close ties to these things. So we may talk about others' experiences and like in the greater scheme of it. But as members in these communities, like we still have to be voices for all of them who maybe can't be a voice right now. Maybe they don't have the ability or the time or the resource or for whatever reason, like they just can't talk about it more. So like for us to be able to talk about it and at least start to shed some light and bring some awareness and conversation to the table.
Courn: Yeah. I think it's just been such a big miss for me. I think being on social media the past couple of years, Just seeing the lack of representation and not only the lack representation, but the lack of amplification. There's tons of autistic and ADHD people of color making wonderful content and they don't get pushed in the same ways. They don't get prioritized.
Chase: Yeah, because again they are unmasked or like they are masking or unmasking to different degrees and that is getting them closer or farther to where they want to be. And that's like ultimately what it comes down to-
Courn: But I don't know, like I don't want to speak for them but I feel like I definitely have friends that have higher support needs and they tell me when they post videos of them stimming, of them doing autistic behaviors, like people are so quick to just be like, that's fake. Like you're not actually autistic, like you're just acting. And it's like, no, that's what autistic people look like. Like, I'm sorry that your low support needs autistic told you that we can hold in our stims and not look like that all the time, but that's not the case for everyone. There's so much harassment that comes with people who are unable to mask and who are unapologetically autistic online. You get penalized for it. It has to be just the right amount of trendy neurodivergent for people to catch on. It's a hard one.
Chase: Well, and like I said, I'm not going to speak for the autism community and those experiences, but even just from the ADHD side, society does not perceive the high-impacted ADHD folks nearly in the same way as high-impact autism. If anyone were to just say, again, I have ADHD, or oh my goodness, this is blah, blah, blah, because of my ADHD, There's going to be very little kickback, if anything, almost like a humored reward of like, oh, how fun or how cool. And it's almost like, can be then like, gaslit and spun back into a positive in a way. Not in a good way, but like, in that regard. So.
Courn: I definitely agree. I think it's hard too, because like, everyone has ADHD, like, you know, you're just, you're just so quirky and you have bad attention skills and you're just you know bad at organizing and stuff that I think people just don't really take it seriously. And I think there's a real pain that comes with that as well people not taking you seriously. Like I think whenever I talk about ADHD needs and I feel like I'm more autistic presenting, but I definitely do have a lot of ADHD traits, I just like people perceive a lot of them as like character flaws and work flaws, like I'm just disorganized and I can't get my shit together and I just need to make more to-do lists to get it done and it's like that doesn't work for my brain so.
Chase: Well and even if we just throw in the layer of like gender roles on top of that right feel like just in general men and women who have ADHD autism it's always perceived different and then like now we get to of course like welcome in non-binary into those conversations and like how that plays a role but like yeah it's like it's not just be more organized and like all these little things. Did you consider getting a planner, Courn?
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Did you just think if you just get a planner and a clock maybe you would just organize better!
Courn: Yeah I, I never knew I never thought of using the things that I'm already on my phone that I'm using every day and still struggling with.
Chase: Yeah. I should have just done that, obviously. I feel like now, as I unmask, I'm also in a very privileged place to be able to unmask around my partner and in a safe place. I probably wasn't like this even just six or seven years ago with my family and everything else and where my life was but like there's a lot of shame I feel like on unmasking when you first unmask, maybe. I don't know if that was your experience maybe we should touch on that but like I feel like when I first unmask I was like very ashamed of some of that stuff or like embarrassed, embarrassed by like letting those things be. From the ADHD side it is less of a social impact for sure but you know like-
Courn: Yeah I think it was a two-part. It felt like a two-part thing for me because I first like I noticed when I started unmasking some autistic traits like stimming in public, talking about my special interests, you get instant feedback from people just looking at you.
Chase: Oh yeah. Well, your eyes pick up so much stuff. Like they don't have to say anything, but you're looking and all of a sudden it's just like the tiniest change in behavior. And you're like, oh God.
Courn: I eat out at restaurants and people stare at me when I'm stimming and stuff. And it's very evident. They make comments, they point at me, children point at me. But I, then I think there's this also, I think internalized thing when you start unmasking, when you start feeling embarrassed for like needing more support. Like I felt-
Chase: Oh my gosh!
Courn: I felt shameful that I had to ask my partner to do things that I had been doing for years. Like I very much was just like, I cannot cook. It is too overwhelming. The process of cooking, managing it. I just couldn't do it. And I'm still, it's like, I still have a lot of shame around it and it sucks. And I'm like-
Chase: Because we live in a society that values being able to do everything. And obviously ableism comes from that, but like, yeah, like there's so much shame and like just there's such a like outcast mentality right when you like can't do something, and yeah ask for help, like oh you can't just do it so yeah it's a whole piece you got to unpack!
Courn: Yeah I think especially when it's like I don't know, I don't think, like I think something that's hard is like when it's something you've done before. I don't think a lot of people around you understand why you can't do it anymore or why it was never something you should have done.
Chase: Can't just go back to that!
Courn: Yeah, because I think I get that a lot where I have family members that are just like, oh, like, why can't you handle this anymore? Why can't you handle loud places anymore? And I'm just like, I never could, but I just was holding it in and dealing with it. Yeah. And I'm just like, and it came at a great cost. And I don't know, it's embarrassing to have those conversations. I think it's just hard to advocate for yourself when you're still learning how to do that.
Chase: And a lot of times those people are reacting because they are then uncomfortable as well for whatever reason, and like you can't always manage those feelings but you gotta like step away from it and like that's always hard. I'm not gonna lie, I remember when we started reconnecting hanging out and when you first started like stimming in restaurants in front of Jess and I, I was like so excited because I was like, oh wow like this person feels like safe and like comfortable enough around me to like be authentically about this. So I hope I didn't have a bad reaction. I just remember being like, when I got back in the car with Jess, I was like, did you see? I was like, that was so great.
Chase: I was so excited. I was very excited for you.
Courn: That's so sweet from my point of view. No, I never noticed you.
Chase: Well I tried to keep it real low key. I didn't want to like do anything. Cause I was like, oh, that's going to make it worse. But it was like positive.
Courn: It's always been strangers. Like even like, I don't know. I feel like my spouse has gotten uncomfortable a few times just like, cause they can tell that visibly I'm uncomfortable or people around us are trying to make a scene. But I mean, I've just had family members just be like, what are you doing with your hands? And I'm just like, I just, ugh...OOOOH!
Chase: That's just smack them. Yeah. Like scrap. Let's go.
Courn: Yeah. I think it's hard to, It's one thing to hear it from strangers. And I think it's a privilege to be safe from strangers. I feel safe in general most times that I'm out with my partner in Portland, that no one's going to assault me for stimming in public. That isn't the case for everyone. But when it's coming from people, you know, who potentially you love and are close with and are learning this stuff about you. It's really hard. Like, I don't think people realize how much unmasking stress has on your relationships. I know people lose a lot of friendships. I didn't lose friendships directly because of masking, but lost friends in that process.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: And it's hard.
Chase: Oh yeah. Friends for sure. I mean friends change and like that's why it's we've talked about this hard to maintain friends as you unmask because you are changing as a person, but not really, you just kind of changing their the perception of you. Especially family. It's always harder with family. I mean I don't know about you, certain masking traits for me are easier with strangers and then some are easier with like people I know. Like I know certain things I mask harder with strangers versus like other things I don't even mask at all, I don't know. There's a really weird, if/then, like, conditional as to how those all work for me.
Courn: Agree. Yeah, I mean, there's still a lot of places I mask and I mask in a lot of work settings because clients treat me better and they respect me more if I put on this image but I'm also just like I don't know there's some places, some family members, I have to mask around them because they harass me and stare at me when I do things and it's just it's crappy.
Chase: Wow, and like I don't know being able to talk about these things do you think it helps like normalize it for more people so they understand the world around them of like, when they see someone at restaurants stimming to maybe not make a scene and like stare?
Courn: Yeah I think it does.
Chase: And like have more understanding about what is happening and why it's happening and like you don't need to make a big deal of it.
Courn: Yeah. I don't know. I literally, this is so funny cause literally two weeks ago, when I just was out walking my dog and I walked by a bus stop and yeah, there was someone there that was like stimming at a bus stop and then another lady was coming by with her daughter and they were walking their dog on the other side. I'm trying to not have my dog bark at theirs. The little girl's like, oh, like she's like shaking. And she like seemed concerned. Like she's like, is she okay?
Chase: The dog or the person?
Courn: No, the person was at the bus stop who like seemed like they were autistic. They actually had like a sunflower lanyard. So they had a hidden disability lanyard on. And the little girl was like, oh, like, what are they doing? They're shaking. And the mom was just like, oh, like they're just like letting out their body movement. They're fine. Like, you know, they would let us know if they're not okay, like they're like, some people just like they have to get their movement out, and they have to move at times and I was like, who is this mom?
Chase: That's the dream.
Courn: Can you be my mom. They were like only a couple years older than me. But it's like, can you be my mom?
Chase: That's that gives me hope.
Courn: Yeah. And I don't know. I was just like, I never have I never get to witness that type of stuff.
Chase: That's really cool. Well it starts from such an early age. Yeah like how that parent reacted in that exact moment was going to form exactly that kid's opinions for probably a long time because it's not that, wasn't just an isolated event that probably happens you know all the time and kids are always asking what's going on and like they're trying to figure out the world around them and to just immediately be like, oh don't talk to them and then just start slurring some stuff or you know whatever versus just being like they're just stimming, they're just letting energy out. Because obviously that kid doesn't know what the word stimming means so just to just be like oh they're just letting energy out like they just said the definition and was like no big deal move on you know and that's gonna change exactly how people, how that kid interacts hopefully with other people yeah, you know.
Courn: I think for me that's why I feel like so much advocacy I'm just like should be geared out educating children, because that's obviously the next generation. Some old people are long gone. And I-
Chase: Yeah, there's no change in those those patterns. Those habits are cemented in!
Courn: Yeah, it's also hard to when you just like I don't know you had one representation. I feel like old people are just like, ah, autism, Rain Man. And I'm like, okay, don't even get me started. Or they're just like, oh, like Sheldon Cooper or Big Bang Theory. And we're getting more representation. I think it's starting to click for some people what some autistic and ADHD stimming behaviors could look like. But I don't think we're nearly close enough to how much normalization and representation we need for people to just stop making weird comments or even thinking them in the first place. And I think that's even a harder thing to get rid of. That internalized ableism and othering that people do when someone is doing something different.
Chase: Stopping the thought is going to take a long time. I try to give myself grace on that because at least the first step is to just not say it out loud. But from there, you still got to do an extra little step of work to think about that and be like, okay why did I think these things and where's that coming from? And allow yourself to unpack that. You talked about, I want to go back to the systems that you talk about in your relationship and like how your partner does all the cooking you guys kind of have these like trade-off things. Do you ever find yourself, I do, getting anxious about how something should be in a task, a chore, expectation, whatever. And then just being like so anxious you freeze and just don't do anything about it? And then it makes you more anxious because nothing's getting done.
Courn: See, I don't feel like I freeze.
Chase: Okay, yeah.
Courn: But I do feel like I get very anxious about, I don't know, the way my partner cleans stuff and does tasks when they're not to how I want them be done. But now I'm at the point where I just tell him. Like I'll call him out. I mean, he does not like, he has like a vacuuming task for example, and I do all the other wiping down and stuff. So I'm like, I'll find like a giant dust bunny of dog hair. And I'm like, what is this? This is not right. You need to vacuum this? I'm like you need to pick this up right now or it's going to bother me all week.
Chase: How's that reaction typically?
Courn: And he's usually just like, uhhh, you're right, you're right. And I feel like it's been a learning process for both of us on me communicating that nicer, which I think is hard.
Chase: Oh, yeah.
Courn: It's really hard.I feel like I'm really blunt when I want something done a certain way or I don't know.
Chase: Or to then maybe like have a conversation of like, this is nothing personal. This is just how I'm saying it. And like, this is just a need that needs to be met. It's not like, it's not like, you're such a bad partner for never doing it. It's just like, hey, I need this. I can't do it. Can like do it please. You know, it's just like that.
Courn: Yeah. I think I do get the point where it's like, I think we're very open about like, I'm, what tasks I'm able to do, what tasks he needs to take over for me, and I don't think it's like a presumption. Like I'm very much just like, oh we're planning a trip to Korea. That is so out of my bandwidth, organizational skills-wise. It's just something I'm not capable of doing. And I'm like, I can't plan that. He loves planning stuff.
Chase: That's wild. Great.
Courn: Trade off, he planned the whole trip. We just booked our airfare yesterday.
Courn: Congrats. So, yeah.
Chase: Nice. Which Korea are you going to?
Courn: The good one.
Chase: The good one?
Courn: The bad one, the medium one?
Chase: If you don't understand that joke, you better go start from the beginning and listen to all those episodes so you know where that joke came from.
Courn: So you don't freeze because I freeze but then I'm learning that like the freezing is part of the unmasking and then like I've got to deal with that anxiety.
Courn: I feel like I freeze a lot when I get overwhelmed like by too many tasks. I tend to freeze like if I have a task list of 10 things I need to do in a day, I just will not do any of them and then rot in bed just feeling so freaking horrible about that I did not do any of them.
Chase: For sure, for sure. The guilt around it. And see, the unmasking though was for me, is like I would just anxiously do everything all the time so that way I wouldn't get that like freeze, rot in bed sensation or like that upsetting guilt and stuff. So like now turns out the unmasking is authentically feeling anxious, which is trash. That is not a feeling I want to feel. And that's how I think that's sometimes what I'm like, unmasking is not fun. Like this is a trash time. But in the end, you can then recognize it and like work through it. But yeah, the phrasing is so annoying, especially as someone who was raised with so much praise around doing everything and doing a lot. And like being the oldest sibling, like, you know, there's just so much expectation of doing things. And like, I got so much praise from parents to be like, wow, look at all these things you do. And so then as an adult, I'm like, oh, I have to do all these things. This is what I got to do. I'm like, well, I'm not doing them. Anxious. And so it's quite the tumbleweed of things that have now grown into that and have to unpack.
Courn: I agree. It's also just a hard thing to, like, I don't know, be comfortable with not doing anything. And I still think that's an active learning process for me. Cause-
Chase: Capitalism.
Courn: Yeah. Learning to sit, I feel like just with like discomfort too, is so hard. I don't know. I'm still not good at it. So I feel like I end up distracting myself with tons of activities that overwhelm me. But just the thought of being alone with my thoughts and ruminating on them is worse. So we need to learn to sit with that discomfort. I don't, I don't, I'm trying. I'm trying. Also me on my phone, on my computer, watching a TV show, music blaring. So I can't have a single brain cell active.
Chase: But then you just get so exhausted from being overstimulated from trying to feel and then it all just comes crashing and catching up with you.
Courn: That's the ADHD and autism fighting right there, because I always just want so much stimulation but I can't freaking handle it. So just always overwhelmed and it's completely my fault. I'm gonna call myself out there on that.
Chase: That's the struggle though. That's why it's not trendy to be these things. It's like, it is a struggle. It's not. We laugh about it now because you have to, like, if you just get caught up in the upsetting, stressful things. But laughing that we have these shared experiences. Right?
Courn: Well, we can seem like we have our shit together. Here we are talking on a podcast. That makes it seem like a very legit, but I don't know. We've had a lot of dysfunction. And meltdowns.
Chase: Well, now, no, we didn't! We talked about it, no, we didn't.
Courn: Over this. So it's no small feat. Did you ever get told as a kid that when people got to know you that like you were actually cool or that when they got to know you that you weren't cool?
Chase: Oh yeah.
Courn: Cause I feel like I got both of those responses and I find them so funny.
Chase: For sure, I mean my whole identity was to be cool and like I was, I don't know, not to sound full of myself, I think I was good at it because I was told that, right? Like that was what I was told. Now, was I told, oh you're actually cool? Yeah, I definitely got a good amount of that, but at the same time I think I also got like, oh you just seem so cool and like, it's oh I'm so glad I met you, like you are just so cool or something like that.
Courn: Okay, I mean you are cool!
Chase: But that was also just a lot of masking to be cool. Like I was doing things that people around me highly valued. So whether I actually valued those things or not, honestly, I don't remember. But like the actually pieces, the unique part of that, I assume you did.
Courn: Yeah, it kind of hurts me. Because like as a child, I feel like people, even though I thought I was really good at masking the early years, I was not. So it ended up me coming off very robotic and like I was playing an actor and people told me they're like, you, you act like you're playing a TV character. That's what I was mimicking. But then when people actually got to know me and I'd like talk more naturally and be really passionate about my special interests, which like I had a lot of special interests that were like cool to kids at the time. Pokemon, dogs, and art. Kids were into that stuff. So they'd be like, oh my god, like you're actually really talkative and you're really down to earth. And I think the talkative thing gets me so much because I would have told you for years that I was an introvert because I believed to be an introvert, because I was so bad at masking and like conversating with other people that I thought I just didn't like talking to people. I just didn't like the way people treated me in conversations. And I'm like actually quite an extrovert. You get to know me, I talk a lot.
Chase: You are very social once you like get past some layers.
Courn: Yeah, and like that's, I feel like I got mimicked as I got older because I'm very like off-putting at first. Like I make people uncomfortable and I don't necessarily open up because I've been harassed and bullied for opening up too soon. So I get a lot of people telling me, like, oh you're actually like talkative and you're not stuck up. There's definitely some misogyny in that too. I feel like people always just assumed I was a bitch growing up. They're like, oh, you're just staring at me across the room. Me, just no thoughts behind those eyes. Just being like, oh, I'd really like to talk to them. Thinking I'm looking really friendly and putting on a good face, just deadpan staring. Open eyes.
Chase: You're just thinking like, what starburst color is this flavor? Or like, you're just some random, yeah, I know, yeah.
Courn: So I don't know. And then I feel like people tell me as an adult now that they think I'm really, I think as I've started to unmask, now I get the opposite where people are like, oh, you were really outgoing when I met you and now that I've had to know you and know that you need accommodations, and you're a disabled person it's just a lot for me and like it's too much.
Chase: Y'all could see my face, my jaw dropped.
Courn: Yeah I just feel like I don't know I've had new people I've met that have just been like seem really excited to hang out at first, but then they have to start dealing with the realities of like being a disabled person and me needing to know plans in advance. I can't do last minute stuff. All the food restrictions I have, like the way people suddenly are just like, you're not as fun as I thought you were. Like, it's not the quirky autism I saw on social media. You're disabled and I don't want to deal with it.
Chase: What do you say to that?
Courn: I mean, no one's never said like directly like, you're disabled.
Chase: I know. Like it's implied!
Courn: Yeah. I just feel like it always like fades off. Like those conversations, those friendships just fade off. Like we just never make a plan. And yeah, that's it. And I don't know. I'm my whole big resolution for this year is putting time into friendships with people who want to hang out with me that I feel like I want to put energy into. You were clearly one of those people as we're here. And yeah, I just don't give those people the time anymore.
Chase: I was gonna say, I was sitting here thinking like, how would I respond? Because like, yeah, how's that ableism treating you over there friend? Like confronting them and like being aggressive about it also wouldn't do you any good. I just I was like piece of, I was like just calling them out also wouldn't do any good because they're not at a place to like even receive that or like understand any of what they're doing. Like they're that far naive.
Courn: Yeah I just feel like I'm just like that's not my responsibility to teach you. If you're a closer friend we've been together for a while, like I'm willing to hold your hand through that but like we're a stranger, I ain't got time to start from like step one, like you need to go on the internet like.
Chase: Also if you just yeah yeah that there I guess maybe it's folks who are truly so unaware and like disconnected from so many things like-
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: I don't know but is that an ADHD autism thing to be hyperaware though?
Courn: Yes it is!
Chase: I was gonna say, so I feel like that's another piece. I'm just assumptively aware of so many things where I'm just like, how are you not aware of anything? Okay, what?
Courn: I never understand that. That's the thing that would always come with my partner. Because like my old friend, we would just be like, oh, like, did you see that, you know, that person walk by 7 minutes ago with the white fluffy dog? We're like, oh, yeah. They're like, isn't that thing they said, like, so funny? And then my partner's like, what are you talking about? Yeah. And like, not even just observing your environment, but also just being like, I don't know, very careful about the words you're using how you're making people feel like it's just being aware of so many things, how you're taking up space, how your body looks at all times, how you present to other people, it's like this constant state of just anxiety and knowing things all the time. So like, yeah, sometimes I'm envious of people who are just out there like, living their life, not aware of how they're presenting to people.
Chase: That's true.
Courn: And like, I like to give the benefit of the doubt of people. Like they're like, Oh, you've never heard of autism. Like, that's a little weird, but I don't know, maybe you escaped a cult, maybe.
Chase: Hey now, hey now, hey now!
Courn: That was a low jab!
Chase: No, that was good, I appreciate it.
Courn: I was thinking more of like a Kimmy Schmidt. Oh. Like literally, that shows problematic, but yeah. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, but also if you don't come into a conversation or relationship with mutual respect and understanding, like I feel like if I people be like, oh, I don't quite understand like what you need, like tell me and I tell them and if they then say no, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do about that.
Courn: And I feel like that's how conversations with my family have been on trying to make accommodations for myself. They're just like, nah. And I'm like, okay, then I can't see you as often. Sorry.
Chase: Which really you're the winner there. I know it's painful. It hurts. It's not the easiest thing to just cut off family, but at the end of the day, like peace is just, it's great. Like it's so worth it. In the long term, it might take a while to get there.
Courn: I agree. The toxic relations that people will keep because they feel like they're tied to family or friends and stuff. I don't know, maybe if I just, I also just don't feel very like strong connection to people or I don't understand why if someone's your parent or your sibling that inherently they're allowed to disrespect you as much as, like more than any other person it doesn't make sense to me so I'm very much like I'd cut off a family member just as much as a friend or a stranger like they don't have levels in my mind. There's no levels of friendship or relationships, I just I'm like you're either close with me or you're not. But if you disrespect me, like.
Chase: Which I don't know, as you talk about that, that's so interesting because for me culturally, like family is everything. You got hella loyalty to family. And I imagine obviously a lot of Asian cultures are similar. A lot of loyalty to family above everything. Like you break the law for your loyalty of your family kind of stuff. Like it's that extreme. And so like it's interesting like hearing you say you're like, oh for you, that's not the case in a way.
Courn: Yeah, no for sure. And I think that's also like I've heard some autistic people say similar things about not quite understanding relationships. I don't really understand love and other things sometimes too. Just a lot of them feel like, I don't know why inherently because you were born as someone's child, like you love them and I'm like, if you don't show that with your actions, why would I love you? Like it's, it's very confusing to me. But I'm like, my family's very much like the type that they're like, oh, they're your family, you need to love them. Not necessarily break the law, but you would put your life on the line for them. I'm like, respectfully, I would not.
Chase: That's such a hard truth to unmasking. Those things you have to battle, and I guess maybe we've had to battle in our experiences like you said weighing out those relationships to unmasking and like those costs and like what you're gonna have to lose and what you're gonna miss out on and the reaction so.
Courn: I think that's why it's all privilege like some people can't afford to lose those relationships with people that are their caretakers, the only support system they have. So I'm never gonna shame someone for not unmasking/for masking like you do what's best for you, yes you probably will feel better in the long run if you start unmasking, but what can I say? These relationships are hard. Life is hard. Capitalism sucks, so.
Chase: Capitalism does suck.
Courn: That's just the moral of every episode now.
Chase: I mean, yeah, unfortunately it's quite the root of a lot of our issues and challenges and struggles but-
Courn: Correct, it's almost as if they're all connected, every system of oppression, who would have known? Ableism? Racism? Capitalism? Wow!
Chase: They're all connected! And that's some facts right there folks. Alright, I gotta go buy some masking tape. See ya!
Courn: Bye!
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!