Episode 5: I need this. - sent from iphone

Courn:     Welcome to Neurotakes. I'm Courn.

Chase:     I'm Chase.

Courn:     Let's get into it because we got a lot to cover today.

Chase:     We truly do. Let's get into it, folks. Courn, do you remember the first job that you had, period? And then do you remember your first like adult job?

Courn:     Yes. Very much so.

Chase:     What was your first what was your first job in life?

Courn:     My first job, I actually got a design internship in high school that was like through the school and stuff, at like a local design agency. It was one person thing so it was very unlegit. And I also got a job at a coffee shop. Those are both like, I don't know. I feel like high school-y jobs and stuff. Internship was actually a pretty big deal. But my first grownup job was actually working in-house as a designer at a children's clothing brand my last year of college.

Chase:     Children's clothing brand. Clothing is so far off from what you do now. That's kind of wild.

Courn:     Correct. But I did make a lot of like cute things in college. So I think a teacher scouted me and was like, oh you should work for this place I work at. And yeah, it was not, it was not good. I actually think my high school jobs were better just because I didn't have a lot of like, I don't know, expectations for them. I got paid, I made minimum wage, which was pretty sick in high school, having any extra cash, not gonna lie.

Chase:     What was the minimum wage you made back then? Do you remember?

Courn:     I want to say it was like 11 something. I could be completely wrong...

Chase:     That's pretty good.

Courn:    But I also got tips at the coffee shop so that would generally make your like wage more like 15, 16 dollars an hour and then I got a flat 15 at my design agency job even though I was probably, man was billing me like 100 dollars an hour not gonna lie. But the work, you should not have had me making tweets for like you know all these Tillamook businesses, so embarrassing

Chase:     Oh man!

Courn:    I think I plagiarized so much copy for social media stuff. I mean I was like 14.

Chase:     Yeah you just, you just figured it out, copy paste, you're like I'll figure this, make it work!

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:    That's fairm that's fair. So your first kind of more adult job maybe like design-esque was the clothing brand. How did that how did you get from there to where we are now?

Courn:     Okay, well I guess I could talk just about that job. They did make me sign some pretty gnarly NDAs about like specifics and stuff. But things I can say, the place had like 99% women, which you would think that if a job had all women, it would be really cool. But turns out it was 99% white women, to be expected in Portland...

Chase:     For sure!

Courn:     So yeah, you can imagine! I did not have a great time there. I was only there for like 6 months until I literally soon as I graduated someone offered me a job at graduation, which was like the design studio that I stayed at for a couple years before leaving and going freelance, which it was like a small tech agency. And it seemed really cool at first because it was really small and had a lot of dudes in the office, which I think appealed to me after working with a bunch of women. Cause I just was like, Oh, maybe there'll be less drama. No, that's just misogyny.

Chase:     Like you traded the toxic drama for misogyny.

Courn:     Yes.

Chase:     Nice.

Courn:     Yeah. It just got way worse. And I'm like, there was other women obviously working there but they were all in like project management positions.

Chase:     of course!

Courn:     And like all the devs were you know men! All the art directors were men! And like I was a junior designer, my boss was a man. And I think that's when it really hit me. I think that was my first big job. And I was like, man, this fucking sucks.

Chase:     Yeah. You think, I feel like TV media is like so flashy, like this cool job, positive light. And then you get into it and you're just like, what is this cesspool? This is terrible.

Courn:     Oh, for real. I also just think you think it's gonna be a lot more legit than it is, but no one knows what they're doing. And I feel like also, I don't know, when I was interviewing with this company, they're like, oh yeah, we're really diverse. Like, you know, like, look, this would be your boss. He's brown. Like, they didn't say that, but they might as well have. And they were just like, hey, you, you're like, you know, I saw your last name.

Chase:     You, you know, you're!

Courn:     But I'm like, me and my boss were holding all the rep for the entire office of 15 people. So like we were the diverse crew. Not an honor I wanted. But yeah, there was so much shit that happened there. It's even hard for me to just like decipher what was misogyny, what was racism, what was like ageism too, cause I was very young. So people just kind of assumed you were stupid.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     Which in some ways, I guess, maybe I was a little stupid, but I was not stupid at my job. I was really good.

Chase:    Yeah. I mean, most of the time, in my experience, those things are almost like all layered together. Rarely are they just one thing, right? It's like usually kind of layered together or intertwined, but yeah, they usually have like a root of something in there. Do you remember any of like specific experiences you wanna talk about or share?

Courn:     Oh yeah. I mean, ooh. I feel like the big thing was, and I know we talked about this before, just like getting asked to like pick up and manage, not even getting asked, but just being assumed that you're gonna manage more things. And I feel like it's very weird in a junior role. Like, I don't know, I would be asked to like take notes or like manage parts of the project when I'm like we had a project manager and like the other like junior designers who were guys didn't do that stuff but they're like, oh like you're taking initiative and you're doing this and I was like okay! But I liked doing that stuff so I was like whatever but then it just would escalate like...I remember the office director telling me like oh we need like an environmental director rep which I don't even know what that meant but-

Chase:     Director rep?

Courn:     Yeah they were just like I think there's a more specific title but they were like oh yeah you're passionate about the environment and you're good at that stuff. And so I just got like tasked with this extra job and it was very much just like, oh, you're a woman in the office and you're the only one who cares about this. So like, do it, Courn.

Chase:     Oh, not even like asking if you wanted the opportunity. It was just like, put on you. 

Courn:     No, it was just forced in a way that was like, well, if you don't do it, then I'm gonna have to do it. And I don't have time to do it. So you should do it. 

Chase:     iOh my.

Courn:     And then I think it was just a lot of stuff like performance review stuff. Like I only had a couple of performance reviews there, but I had a boss who wasn't my direct boss, who was at the other office, pretty much just tell me that I came across too direct and standoffish. And I get comments from project managers telling me that I was talking too direct to clients, even though I'd see other junior positions doing the same thing. Like I'd have a project managers like talk over me on specific design specs. And I'm just like, why would I not speak to that? But I don't know, because I was a woman at the time and very young and people were just like, oh, like just stay quiet. I'm like, yeah, that's my work.

Chase:     I feel like any AFAB individual who's like assertive, direct, boundary-setting is always perceived especially my experience, I will not speak for everyone, but it's like often perceived as bitchy and rude and like you said too aggressive and like how that is never something described or assumed on AMAB individuals. Rarely. That's the thing.

Courn:     That's the thing. I don't know. I feel like I see other people on my team get just as mad as me, but I would be the only one get called out. Which I thought at the time was like, oh, just because I have the least experience.

Chase:     Yeah. It's no funny how you come up with those like slight excuses to like almost justify to yourself.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     And like make yourself maybe feel safe or feel okay of like, oh this is okay that this is happening even though everything in my body is like telling me otherwise.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     Like I'm gonna maybe say this stuff to like protect myself or keep myself safe at this point or you know to get through and survive.

Courn:     But and I think that's the thing about like a lot of like subtle misogyny, racism, like ableism at the workplace, a lot of it like isn't so overt. It's these little things that you really just like kind of suss out over time the way people are treating you. And then as soon as you get that information that validates it, like I don't know, I found out that I was making significantly less than people in the same job as me.

Chase:     How'd you find that out? Cause I feel like- 

Courn:     They were sharing their salary. There was a thing going on where people were actually sharing their salary and they would use excuse. They were like, oh yeah, well like they're in San Francisco. We're in Portland. So like-

Chase:     Cost of living.

Courn:     Yeah, they should make, you know, like double you!

Chase:     Double?

Courn:     There was almost a double.

Chase:     What's the job description? Is it the same?

Courn:     Design associate. That's, it's those associate at the end and they're making double.

Chase:     That's some tea right there.

Courn:     Yeah, so I think that's what I was that was I found out year two that I wasn't getting paid as much and at that point I was like I'm not even a beginner here. I'm, this is my second year, this is not my first rodeo friends.

Chase:     Literally.

Courn:     And then I stopped making excuses and yeah I quit my job. I actually quit my job because they ambushed me with this really weird diversity meeting. Like-

Chase:     What? do tell!

Courn:     I got invited. Like I can't remember if it was something that was like, oh, like we're doing, oh, culture club. That's what they called it.

Chase:     Culture club!

Courn:     And how they described it to me was like, oh, we're gonna plan pizza parties. Like we're gonna, you know, like improve the quality of like, mental health of employees. So we're gonna see whatever things that we can make life better. But it seemed a lot of superficial things, like literally like let's get a foosball table, beanbags.

Chase:     Oh my gosh.

Courn:     Stuff like that. And then they're like, oh yeah, you should join Courn. I think you'd really like it. And I was like, sure. And they're like, oh, join at this time. I did, I get in there within 10 seconds. They're like, okay, Courn, so like, do you think you could describe the problems with racism at this company.

Chase:     What?

Courn:     And I'm just sitting here with like ten other white people on a call and not a single other person of color. And I'm just so uncomfortable, especially because I'm just like, I've been chosen as this rep, a half Asian person to describe all of the racism in our corporate world. And I gave some really weird answer to, yeah, and I put in like my 2 weeks notice, like a month after that.

Chase:     Right away.

Courn:     I was like, that was so wild. No oneapologized to me. They even asked me to like, do you think you could make some like racism flyers, like put them up in the office and-

Chase:     Newsflash folks, anti-racism posters do not fix racism in a company.

Courn:     No! 

Chase:    That's my hot take for the episode.

Courn:     And that's the thing I told him. So we would have projects, like I still quote this project because we did a project for Women's Day for a very big company. Like one of the biggest payment transaction companies in the world, a Women's Day campaign. And tell me why I got on this campaign. They invited me last minute to the project too. I wasn't even an initial pick. And I think optically, they chose me. I get on this meeting, there's like 5 old white dudes from the company team.

Chase:     Not a good start.

Courn:     We have, you know, the white art director from our team, another white person from our team, another white dude, just all white dudes. Not even like a woman. I was only woman at the time there. And it was so wild. And I actually got taken off the project because I complained so much. Cause I asked them, they would be like, oh yeah, what do you think about this? And I'm like, I feel uncomfortable having an opinion on this. When there's no women in the room ideating a campaign that's supposed to celebrate and uplift women. Especially when it had an angle to like uplift marginalized women too. And I'm like, yeah, where are they at?

Chase:     Where they at though?

Courn:     Yeah. So.

Chase:     Oh, there's so many things I want to like go off on from what you just said, but we trying to, we trying to keep it just like at a good time. But wow, we got to come back to some of that.

Courn:     Yeah. I want to get into it! I feel like I just did so much talking,

Chase:     No, I love hearing it!

Courn:     Not trying to take your spotlight. 

Chase:     You're good!

Courn:     Cause I know you got some shit with your job. So I would love to know like where your job experience began too.

Chase:     That's why we're here though. We're sharing our experiences. I think it was just, it was natural to go back and forth. Yeah, I started in retail like any teenager, you know, babysitting, but my big kind of first adult job was working for the city of Portland. Kind of this weird intern-esque role. It was like a real role but it was like I kind of only reported to one person. I only did like small projects and it was like kind of part-time. It's like an assistant almost so that was my first experience in an office which Was weird in and of itself because it was working for a part of this city that deals with equity and inclusion So, of course, I got the job because I was brown.

Courn:     Their like, hell yeah, we got one!

Chase:     You know, yeah and like I think, I mean it was a government job It's The division definitely had some good intentions, right?  It's like better than nothing, right? Just because it's not doing perfect. Anyways, I, my boss at the time was a black woman and I feel like that shaped a lot of my experiences just watching her navigate communication with white people. Yeah, like, you know, she was not from Portland. She was from other states. So just really early exposure I was probably 18 at that job. Just like oh my gosh.

Courn:     That's a big deal for your age. Like shoot. 

Chase:     Yeah, yeah. I was that's when we were going to school. I had the job.

Courn:     I remember you telling me about that. I don't know. I thought that was legit. 

Chase:     It I mean it was a legit role but yeah it was like very strange with what we were dealing with. I think I was probably very naive to anything that really was happening and was just like, oh no that's not what they meant and like that's not what that means or like didn't really think twice if someone said something or wasn't really attuned and looking for ways that people maybe looked at me different or like spoke to me different or any of those things because it was a professional setting. I had to dress very like professional. So there's that. From there I got you know just a different a bunch of different jobs. But once I got an office job from web design after we graduated, that I feel like was like, okay, I'm 20, I was 20 turning 21 in that job. Like, I feel like that changes a lot of stuff too. That was like first job in a cubicle really on my own trying to figure stuff out like I thought it was so cool to be in boys club with the boys like one of the boys and you know back then I was definitely more like femme presenting and like more feminine dressing and stuff. So I'm sure like the tomboy attitude through all that had some advantages and disadvantages, but did you ever have any like I guess, culture club is different than boys club?

Courn:     No, I feel like okay So the thing-

Chase:     Culture club wasn't real!

Courn:     So the thing was I don't know the places I was working at did not have, I don't know, I think cool guys. The boys club was a bunch of nerdy white dudes. So I feel like it's different, but I think it was similarly, because I feel like I got a lot of comments that kind of were just like, oh, you're not like other girls. I wasn't like other girls because I was non-binary.

Chase:
     Right!!!

Courn:     But also like, I just had interests that weren't, I mean, it was weird because I was very femme presenting at that time too, but they definitely like latched onto stuff like, oh, you know, you like games and you're into technology and web design and you can code? Oh my god. Like you just pick up those vibes.

Chase:     The voice. It has to be in the voice too.

Courn:     They didn't even sound like that.

Chase:     I feel like that's always the tone though.

Courn:     That's always the tone. In my mind I'm like that's how they said it. Yeah. It wasn't quite that condescending. 

Chase:     No, that's fair. That's fair.

Courn:     Impact was the same.

Chase:     But it's so interesting, I don't know, when we really zoom out in gender roles and social stereotypes of all these things are supposed to be, but then, I don't know, AFAB individuals are shamed into not being enough of a certain thing. And then it's like, but like, don't be too much. Right? Like don't be too much. So you got to find this balance. Like you can never just exist. 

Courn:     That's what I don't understand that balance where it feels like either like you're a girl's girl or you're like a guy's girl. And if you're a girl girl, like, you know you're super girly and all that and then as soon as you're like, oh I'm not like other girls like, I'm down to earth and it just it just feels like you get pigeonholed into either one and I feel like people will make you think that a girl's girl is being perpetuated by women but it's not! It's women adhering to standards of men and that's the thing.

Chase:     Imposed upon by men. Yeah. 

Courn:     Yeah and like we understand women perpetuate misogyny.

Chase:    Correct.

Courn:     You know all gender diverse people can. Right.

Chase:     But the percentage of that is so low in the big picture.

Courn:     And it's like why are they doing that too?

Chase:     Correct.

Courn:     It's like because we live in a patriarchy they feel the need like if they don't act hyper femme, then like they'll be perceived as a man or less than a woman. Oh my god, what a horrible thing.

Chase:     Yeah, yeah. Yeah, often they also act that way out of like we talked about like survival. Sometimes you have to do those things and you're not always intentionally realizing you're doing that, but like, you know, to get the promotion, sometimes you got to act like one of the boys, or you got to do the opposite, and be like the dumb girl or like, you know, all these different roles to like advance your career, to get yourself into those positions to then maybe start to dismantle or maybe like help others and like how you have to almost like play the game to get ahead enough but like not almost get so lost in the sauce that you're just like kind of becoming one of them again, you know does that make sense?

Courn:     See I that's it that makes so much sense to me. It also feels like why I felt like I had so much moral contradictions. Like by the time I quit my job, I was kind of in this place where I was like, there was no ethical way for me to work in the design industry here. Like there's no way for me ethically to hire other people and do these things. I just have to work by myself.

Courn:     Correct.

Courn:     Like I can't do this.

Chase:     Oh yeah. I mean there's almost little to no way to ethically work for another individual with an existing business and like plan, corporation, whatever they're doing. Because again, it's all rooted in the system in which it was created. So if the person who created it, their values are basically intertwined in everything. So I think about that too as I'm I have kind of moved up in my career in different positions. And now I'm kind of in a management role of like, how do you hold your morals and values while also like getting paid, pay your bills? But like finding jobs that you can work for and like accommodate your needs, right? We talked about that in previous episodes. So when you factor in all these additional layers of ADHD and autism, it ain't easy to work. It ain't easy.

Courn:     I think it's just a privilege to be like, okay, well start your own job. Find your perfect job. 

Chase:     God. Just work harder.

Courn:     Just work harder. Just find a better job.

Chase:     If that was the solution, folks.

Courn:     We've been out here working hard, respectfully.

Chase:     Truly, you have been hustling. You have been hustling.

Courn:     I'm just tired of hustle culture, I think.

Chase:     Me too.

Courn:     I hate when people ask me like, oh, what's your dream job? Or I bet you live. I bet you have your dream job because you work for yourself. I don't dream of capitalism. I don't dream of contributing. I dream of doing nothing and just sitting at home with my dogs and rotting in my bed.

Chase:     Enjoying life.

Courn:     That's my dream!

Chase:     Rotting in bed.

Courn:     You know, maybe not enjoying to the highest point, but you know, I want to rot in bed every now and then.

Chase:     Yeah, absolutely. How much of your experience do you think through your jobs working for other people was like based on how you looked, and how just like the world saw you versus like maybe your personality and like what things you talked about, like just based on purely aesthetics and visuals? Cause obviously at this time you didn't have pink hair.

Courn:     No.

Chase:    Like your appearance was quite different in those jobs.

Courn:     Yeah, and I think that's-

Chase:     If you recall correctly.

Courn:     Yeah, that's a lot of it too. I feel like, I mean, I was masking a lot of things, but definitely like my appearance and stuff. Like if you see old photos of me, if you go really back on @courtneyahndesign. I mean, like I had like a short brown bob that was like very straightened and I wore very put together fall color outfits, like everything was always in place. I wore perfect makeup, always foundation. Like shit like that! So I think I really presented as this very like professional hyper femme person but like I would like have like little quirky things. I'd wear more colors and patterns I'm like, oh I'm also a designer. I feel like I wanted to address the look of what I thought a Portland designer looked like. And I do feel like people respected me more for it or just expected like, oh, you look exactly how I would expect you to. And I think it helped a lot at some of my early jobs. I think it made me stick out from other candidates and it feels very icky because now I just think about like obviously I haven't gone through any interview processes recently, but I see the way people look at me. I see the way corporate people look at me now. They don't want to touch me with a 10-foot pole. I just saw that study that came out that said, I forget who put it out, I think it was like business insider, business.com, but they said that people with non-binary pronouns on their resume are far more likely to get overlooked. Like they can visually see the discrimination and there just hasn't been a lot of studies on like what it looks like, I don't know, to be non-binary, to be queer and to visually see that on paper, not even getting to the interview process. Sometimes I'm like, ah shit. I don't think I'd get a job now like that.

Chase:     Get a job period or just get a job maybe in like a higher place? Like maybe it just depends on the job. I feel like a look like yours could be pulled off in like a tattoo salon or right like things like that where there's like certain fields but-

Courn:     I think it's a lot of give-and-take especially in Portland, it's very queer. I don't think people are like super weirded out if you have bright colored hair and tattoos and stuff.

Chase:     It's getting less but I think it's just a job.

Courn:     Could I get a job at a super like corporate place> Like, I'm like I'm like Nike seems like a stretch like they would hire me anywhere higher up. Absolutely not.

Chase:     Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we deal with that in my, like we deal with that in the fitness space and like getting trainers, right? Like there's all these like perceptions of what a trainer should be, what they should look like, how they act, and like how that plays into the type of clients you then gain and retain or etc. So.

Courn:     Yeah I guess I'm curious to hear like how that's, I know you didn't touch too much on your current job, but I would just like, I would love to know!

Chase:     Oh my gosh. I think that was when I switched from office jobs and got back into training that became way more apparent especially because I was like going through a lot of changes for myself, like with my own identity, unmasking like all the things. So I mean the fitness industry we know is brutal. That's just brutal in general and like fitness is like the terrible word for it. So there's like such a hypersexualization on trainers looking a role, right? And even how people want to look when they are training. So, I mean, I do wonder how much of my hiring was based on how I looked at the time and how I dressed. Cause I would work out in the like short booty shorts and like a tank top or something, right? And like, I didn't give a damn at the time if anyone looked at me cuz I was like, whatever I don't want your attention anyways but did I? It was it like deep down. Was that something I was like, oh, maybe if I get this just in case, you know, so yeah. Yeah I mean I had people come up to me especially when I became a trainer and then worked out at the same gym which is why a lot of trainers actually don't work out at the gym that they work. Members would come up and be like just so you know, like you, those shorts don't cover much! And though I would get comments like that from other women. 

Courn:     Martha, I'm working out, okay? It's fucking hot in here. Stop looking at my ass!

Chase:     Honestly, I was like, okay, yeah. So, like, you realize none of my bosses are gonna care about that, right? Like, they're fine with girls showing ass and working out. That's fine. So there's that. I mean, I dealt with, of course, like, once I came out, there was a lot more male members who would sexualize me and like my relationship, or like wanting to watch and like I don't know how much of that impacted any promotions, at least in my previous gym. I feel like this gym is a little different.

Courn:     Yeah. That's gross!

Chase:     The world is pretty gross!

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     Again just like a lot, it would it be great to just allow people to exist.

Courn:     Truly!

Chase:     It's so nice. It'd be so nice. I think it's just like a more aggressive industry just being in the fitness industry. Design, obviously you're kind of like working with people in a different way, right? You're like, so it's like less in person now. I don't know previously when office was probably different but-

Courn:     I think it's a lot less overt too just because I mean obviously the fitness industry. I feel like who you think is dominating the fitness industry? And it's just like definitely feels like a boys club.

Chase:     Oh absolutely.

Courn:     There's so much shit that comes with that but then I think about the design industry and I think it's really interesting because like I think stereotypically you would think like, oh who's good at art and design? And it's like, oh it's always been the women! But then you turn around and look at all these major design companies and who's in charge? Men. Who's leading these conversations in design? Men.

Chase:     Of course.

Courn:     So it's just like, I don't know, I don't think I'm not gonna say one's worse or than the other but they're definitely different challenges and I definitely think there's problems that I think in your workplace. There's a lot of overt sexism that happens.

Chase:     Yes, yes.

Courn:     And I think that's very tiring.

Chase:     The overt is, I mean they're all tiring. They're all tiring. It's all exhausting, right? 

Courn:     Agree!

Chase:    The overt for me now is like easier to point out. Like, it's easier to be on alert for because you're just like, wow that was so blatant and obvious. It's like you said, it's the more subtle and covert stuff that you don't think in that moment is like a jab and it's not until like hours later and you're like wait a fucking minute. Hold up, and then you're just like, oh gosh like one time I had someone not use my title when they introduced me and just like introduced my name, right?

Courn:     No - who is this random person? This is Chase!

Chase:     Snd obviously obviously you know I had a position of authority at that time so I was like, huh. But you know in those moments like it's again like you're in front of a prospect or like a client. Do you correct the person right? Like do you do you say something? Do you pull them aside later? Like do you know it's like all those questions, because in the moment, so yeah, you don't want to like say because what this could hurt the business and this isn't not it was not my business I was not the business owner but like at the same time like that was blatant disrespect, you know, like, ooh. So, yeah, I've had that. I mean, I've also had people expect me to be the note taker in things as well.

Courn:     Like always, It's always the default note taker. I freaking hate it because I always have to take notes because I just have horrible processing.

Chase:     I was gonna say, I was gonna say!!!

Courn:     So if I don't take notes, but people think I'm taking notes for them and I'm like no. First of all, my notes make zero sense to you. So you don't freaking want them.

Chase:     Yep. I think about that because I take so much notes. I grew up taking a ton of notes in church. It helped me like stay focused and honestly it was probably a fidget. I've been looking back. So like I just take notes everywhere now. I mean that's like absolutely an ADHD thing. We forget everything. So like I take notes so I remember everything. But then yeah it's just like, oh like, what, what, what did you write down for this or what did we say about this? And I was like, well no no no these notes were not for the collective. This was for me. You could ask me to take notes and then I could say no. Yeah but it's that assumed. Would it be worse if they asked? If people asked? That's the thing.

Courn:     I don't know, maybe if you asked me nicely and not every time, or be like oh, last time, Courn took notes, so maybe you should take notes. Or whose fucking job is it to take notes? Maybe they should take notes. BEcause I don't know!

Chase:     Where's the treasurer? Who's the treasurer role?

Courn:     I don't know, hot take! I think someone should have that assigned if they want to do that.

Chase:     But then we get into like the weeds of someone who doesn't want to take notes and then takes shitty notes so they don't ever get asked to take notes again and then it's the person who takes the best-

Courn:     Weaponized incompetence!

Chase:     Yes! And then they never get asked!

Courn:     Yep that's my Roman Empire as men and just weaponized and competent. I try not to project a lot on my partner because my partner actually like is very good and they do all the cooking and like that's a big freaking thing that's off my hands, but every once in a while he'll like load the dishwasher so freaking bad and he's like, oh I don't know what I'm doing, and I'm like don't you dare weaponize. 

Chase:     Don't even start that in this house!

Courn:     I know you know that the plate shouldn't be up there. Why?

Chase:     Like brutal. Yeah my dad also did the dishwasher really poorly but he would do it anyways. He would still do it but like he would still do it poor, he wouldn't complain, he would just do it poorly.

Courn:     My dad never put a dish away. I think I've seen him put away one dish, he would just, okay it got so bad that literally like as soon as he my mom started bringing him his food in the living room because he didn't want to sit at the table with us, he'd be watching golf and after he'd get done he just put the plate on the ground. Like we don't have dogs and shit that's just gonna like lick it up. Like, and he doesn't want the dogs licking his plate. But he put it on the ground and then my mom would have to come and get it. 

Chase:     Oh. Like, I don't- He wouldn't say, come get this plate.

Courn:     No, no, no.

Chase:     He would just put it there.

Courn:     No, no, no. 

Chase:     Yikes. 

Courn:     Like, I don't know what your situation was like at home, but I'm like, my dad just, my mom did all of those, like, I feel like typically feminine chores. Like, it becomes stereotyped. She was a stay at home mom. She cooked and cleaned and took care of us. My dad did nothing.

Chase:     Yeah. 

Courn:     He showed up, he made money, spent it, gambled it. Look at where it got him. Now he's divorced and zero contact with me.

Chase:     So he's the one missing out.

Courn:     Yeah, that's where a misogyny will get you long-term.

Chase:     It just won't get you anywhere, friends. But there's so much like internal stuff. We all have to dig up with it and I think that's why I'm excited to have this podcast and talk about it more so we can like realize more things and maybe help other people realize because it's a it's a brutal brutal world out there.

Courn:     Oh for sure.

Chase:     One other thing I thought about with jobs and like just any unfairness. Did you ever get, I don't know, like punished or maybe reprimanded differently than your AMAB counterparts?

Courn:     Okay, the thing is I don't really think I ever got punished at work too much. I think it's just because I was a goody two shoes.

Chase:     Perfect. 

Courn:     Like, and I think it's just because I had so much time also at work that I would redo things like hundreds of times where like male counterparts would just turn in whatever the fuck they made. It would be wrong and like, you know, our art director would be like, oh, that's wrong. And I'm like, generally, like my boss was like pretty cool dude. So he would just be like, oh yeah, like Courn, you need to fix that. The problem where I saw it come up was performance reviews and stuff. And after calls, I feel like I didn't get like punished, but I would get berated by other team members for being too loud on calls opposed to male counterparts. And they wouldn't get called out for that. 

Chase:     So they're like yelling rage screaming at the camera and like they're just like, oh yeah this man's passionate and then-

Courn:     Respectfully, like I loved my boss that job but like he got really passionate when he talked and stuff and like...

Chase:     Never viewed as emotional though. Passionate is an emotion, friends! 

Courn:     He's laying down the law, he's telling the things, but when I do it, I don't know. Also, I think a lot of it's just like some ableism, because like I didn't have a lot of inflection in my voice. I would be very, and I masked more at work.

Chase:     Of course.

Courn:     I would put on a very like a official voice I'd be like, oh like I'm the I'm speaking from the tech perspectives. I'm Courn and we actually can't do that. Like I'm not even joking. Like I had a whole separate voice. Likepeople never heard this voice like this. So-

Chase:     Yeah, that's fair.

Courn:     Yeah, I think I got lucky in that aspect, but I know that it was not the case  for you. 

Chase:    Oh, I mean, like, yeah, I don't think I often got reprimanded or like you said, like, oh, you're doing something bad. We've told you multiple times to stop. Like nothing like that. But I mean, yeah, men around me have always been promoted faster and considered promotions quicker than me when like I'm way more qualified and or wanting the position. Right? Sometimes they're just- 

Courn:     Men, they just fall into it.

Chase:     Yeah, and they don't even want it. Yeah. They don't even want that stuff. Yeah, or it's just kind of like excused behaviors for the AMAB and the men, right? Just their behavior is excused. Well, like they're good intentions or they're trying or something. And I was like, okay, but if that same thing happened to me that would not be the reaction at all. Like I've actively had, yeah, I've actively been called out in an email with only like female, like coworkers on the thread and just getting like reprimanded for something that like technically wasn't my fault like I could not have changed the outcome of but like male co-workers did not get included on that. And so when I replied, I included them. I was like, hey, because this involves all of us, I think it's important that we all see the communication. And I've dragged people in. Absolutely not. But I would not have probably done that a couple years ago just because I wasn't aware of all the stuff that was happening.

Courn:     Yeah I think also too I don't know I feel like I took so many precautions from like internalized misogyny and other things that I'm like it's still so hard for me to like not apologize all the time. And I think that's something I've really come to terms with, like, I don't know, being married to a man and realizing how he writes emails. Because I literally work side by side with him. And I was like, oh my god, Raymond, your emails are so like blunt and aggressive. Just like, we need this file, period. Me just like, excuse me, dear client-

Chase:     Hope the weather treated you well this weekend and I hope your mother's fine!

Courn:     Yeah, like if you so happen to have a chance, I know that I asked for this file five weeks ago and you ignored me.

Chase:     And I asked again! 2 weeks ago. 

Courn:     And I'm so sorry to bother you, but I really need this file to do the job that you hired me for. Meanwhile, you know, my spouse would be like, give me file or we can't produce. He's a little bit better than that.

Chase:     But that's the same sentiment.

Courn:     Yeah. So I don't know. I feel like that avoided a lot of confrontation, but I freaking hate it. I hate the way that I've been trained to email and talk and always apologizing for myself. I think that's also the thing when I feel like whenever men messed up at jobs, they don't even admit they mess up.

Chase:     Correct.

Courn:     They don't apologize so no one thinks they did anything wrong. Yeah and like I'll apologize for like the stupidest shit like stuff I shouldn't apologize for. I closed the door too hard. I'm sorry. I just entered the room and I'm already apologizing. 

Chase:     Yep. Well was it even, even just when we were texting earlier today, I think I was not being very clear on my instructions and I found myself being like, oh I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. When really it was just like, oh I'm busy, I don't have the bandwidth right now to like give you more details, I'm gonna give you those later. But I was like, oh I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, you know? It's just like, yeah. 

Courn:     It's hard because I go back and forth because I'm like, I don't mind saying sorry to me. It's like a convenience thing. Like I'm like, I don't think there's a lot of, I don't think I put a lot of intention behind someone saying, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like I'm just like, oh, I'm sorry.

Chase:     My B!

Courn:     Moves on. But yeah, I shouldn't have to do that but I'm also like, I don't know, I like making people feel good and I don't like inconveniencing people. I don't think that should be a crime. I think we should start making men apologize for things. I just think we all should be nicer. I think it's a nice thing to just be like, oh, I'm sorry.

Chase:     Yeah, there is a fine line because obviously an apology or saying sorry never hurts, but like it does actually hurt to a certain point because there's not a need to always do that. It angers me and I've tried to make a more conscious effort to change some of the language I use and say things and not necessarily move and be cautious of everyone all the time. And like, you know, now my role, I do have to be cautious of people in the space, but at the same time, like I try to impart some empowerment to my female clients and AFAB clients to just be like, you don't have to apologize, you don't have to move every single time. Like, you can just be here working out and like, if you're in the way of something, then someone will ask and if they don't ask, guess what, you can just stay there. Like, no one should be getting mad at you if you don't like, move out of their way and be courteous of that. Like, you were here first, it's fine. You don't have to move your stuff unless they're specifically like, hey, can I use this? Oh yeah, let me move my stuff. That's fine. But moving your stuff preemptively, don't do it. Hold your ground, take up space. I try to tell people all the time at the gym. Take up space.

Courn:     I love that!

Chase:    So if you're listening to this and you work out, take up space at the gym. Hold it down. Because it's never gonna change if we all just continue to roll over now mind it but, no, do it do it carefully, don't put yourself in danger but like yeah, yeah we got we gotta start somewhere.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:    Wow, we packed a lot into this episode. I feel like there was so much we could still go into.

Courn:     I know I'm just like just the topic of work alone. I feel like I have like 20 isms I could talk about of all the shit that happens.

Chase:     Absolutely! Maybe we'll live in a world one day where these happen less. Not in our lifetime, because there's no way in less than what, 50, 60 years, this is all going to be super different. But you know, you know.

Courn:     I don't know. I feel like I have some hope. Like I feel like, I don't know, definitely since working for myself, I feel like also the way I present myself online, people that become my clients, they know very openly that I'm queer and I'm disabled and I'm Asian. So I think they come with a lot of like compassion, understanding people that wouldn't want to work with me kind of just get like filtered out already. But I don't know, every once in a while I just get a client who just like misgenders me, like uses the wrong pronouns and like I'm like it's in my email signature I don't know how to make it any easier for you. It just gets me. So I'm just like, I think every job sucks in some aspect. Some suck a little bit less for different people. There's just so many levels I feel like there has to be a reform too that it makes it challenging for me that I'm just like, just even putting aside like the money problems of like fiscally how different women are paid. Talk about like Black women, Hispanic women, getting paid like whatever 30 to 50 cents to a dollar that a white man makes. That's not even putting in like the societal things. And it's like the culture, like jobs are just hostile for you to work at. And I feel like it's a really hard place where I'm just like, oh, do we just quit these jobs altogether? Like someone has to come and pave the way and I don't think that should be on marginalized people to have to do. But-

Chase:     That's a great point.

Courn:     But also privileged people aren't freaking doing it. So that's the thing.

Chase:     That's a great hot take to end on. I'm not gonna lie.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:    That was solid. Okay, well, I gotta go. I need to go burn the patriarchy down. So BRB. Bye.

Courn:     Bye.

Chase:     Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!

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