Episode 4: Meet my ✨partner✨!

Chase:     This is Neurotakes, I'm Chase.

Courn:     And I'm Courn!

Chase:     Let's get into it. Portland is known as a pretty safe space, or like a safe city for LGBTQ members or community members. Courn, do you feel safe in Portland and do you feel safe being out?

Courn:     I mean, yes and no. I feel like that's a two part thing just because like my identity as a queer person, I mean being ace and panromantic, and still dating a cis man, I don't think that really opens me up to a lot of like violence or harassment on the street. And I think that's a pretty big privilege, but I think there's also the duality too of being in Portland. Everyone who's queer here is overwhelmingly white and I think that in general makes me feel unsafe even not being like, I don't know a dark-skinned person of color. I still feel very uncomfortable in most queer spaces here because they're so freaking white! Go to any queer event in town and it's like.

Chase:    Yeah, like one person of color.

Courn:     Yes!

Chase:     In the whole room of like 30 or 40 people plus.

Courn:     Yeah, yeah!

Chase:     Yeah that's true, feeling safe ,do you feel comfortable being out or is that kind of like along the same lines?

Courn:     I mean, I think they're slightly different for me because I think being safe should, it's kind of like a right, it isn't for many. I think feeling comfortable is kind of like, it's also should be a right, but it feels like more of a privilege sometimes.

Chase:     That's true.

Courn:     But also I think just having my identity, it's not always one that's comfortable for people to hear. Like I think it's easier for people to understand like, oh, I'm gay. Like, oh, that's very easy. But you start adding in like more detailed identities, like saying I'm asexual and I'm panromantic. And people are like, oh, like you don't have sex. And that invites a lot of like questions, not that I don't think other queer identities do that, but I think people really love to know if you're ace like what that means if you're in a relationship like-

Chase:     Yeah and they need to know like how much sex you have!

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     And they don't ask anyone else that!

Courn:     Yeah, it's just like a very I don't know vulnerable topic so I don't like to bring it up if I know it's with people that like I don't feel comfortable sharing that part of my life with, because I know they're gonna ask like.

Chase:     Yeah that's still shitty, and they should not they shouldn't ask of course like I feel like when another friend of ours came out as ace, I had a lot of questions and looking back I'm like, oh maybe I shouldn't have asked that many at the beginning. But is it different when friends ask versus strangers or people at the store or some random person who you have no connection with.

Courn:     Oh, for sure. Like it's so much different. Like, I don't know. Like, I definitely think there's a line always with invasive questions, but I'm like, if you're my close friend, like, I don't know, you probably already know about my private life and most of my sex life.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     If I'm telling you that stuff. So I don't think it's that much of a step.

Chase:    Yeah.

Courn:     But I'm just like, yeah, complete stranger. You know, what are you doing in your bed later? Like, truly, that's freaking weird. But I'm like, I don't know. Sometimes I wish more family and friends like asked questions. So there wasn't such a big misunderstanding.

Chase:    True.

Courn:     Like I still remember when I first came out as ace, like a family friend asking me when I was getting divorced. Like that was just the next step.

Chase:     That was the reaction?

Courn:     Yeah, they're like, oh, so you're getting divorced. And I was like, wow, that's a lot of misinformation. So...

Chase:     Oh my gosh. Yeah. Is it just because that person's like only experiences were people who were then ace getting divorced?

Courn:     I don't think they had any experience like they were an older person so I think they just thought that like oh being ace means not having sex which means you could not possibly please your partner so like they'd have to.

Chase:     -there's no reason to be with them!

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     Oh my lord!

Courn:     Yeah so that was not the case obviously!

Chase:     Yeah that's a good point, I don't think I really think of that where it depends on maybe like your sexuality and your romantic attraction and how that is then perceived by the city in which we live.

Courn:     Mhmmm!

Chase:     Because I don't know if that's the case for lesbians. 

Courn:     To say what's it like for you? Like do you feel comfortable? Do you feel safe like being around town? Like I know it's a lot different.

Chase:     I'm on the lookout less in Portland when my wife and I are around but I mean there's still places in Portland that give us looks or we'll walk past people on the street and we still get stared at. So comfortable, probably more so than you, but might be for different reasons maybe because I'm also more androgynous presenting than you.

Courn:     I also just think I don't know you like obviously because you have a wife yeah and you guys both I don't know present as females largely even if like your wife isn't necessarily. Because you've been married and I think been out and queer, I think you've just you've been forced into having to be very visible and I don't think I was forced in that way which is why I don't feel as comfortable. Like I'm in a straight passing relationship with a man. 

Chase:     That's true, yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, and I almost don't even think about the fact that there's like such a privilege to walking around like appearing as a straight couple.

Courn:     Oh yeah.

Chase:    Versus yeah I'm always like we're always on the lookout or always kind of aware that we're two female presenting people in a relationship and like that's how we are perceived.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     So yeah. 

Courn:     I think it's a really lack of accountability on that too and like as someone who's in a straight passing relationship, I don't know, I get so many like content recommended to me that are people like oh I just like I hate being bi and I hate being pan and like seeing people, seeing me with a man is assuming I must be straight. And like, I know that's really frustrating. Like I get it, but also I'm just like, I don't know, the type of privilege and access you have to spaces when people assume you are straight, like you just can't not have that convo. Like that needs to be more than just a disclaimer of like, oh, I have, you know, straight passing privilege. Like, no, it is so much, it is so freaking different when you just walk around with the person you love instantly can just open harassment. Like, I don't know, I don't face that.

Chase:     True. Just standing on the corner, waiting for a crosswalk. Like we would be in more imminent danger than you and your partner.

Courn:     Correct. 

Chase:     Yeah or just any partner that appears straight or heterosexual. Yeah Portland's weird about that. They are absolutely more accepting of certain sexualities and appearances than others.

Courn:     Yeah. I would say Portland feels like a very safe city for me for like white gay men. Oh yeah. And mostly white gay women.

Chase:     Oh, that's true.

Courn:     It doesn't feel safe for a lot of trans folks. It definitely doesn't feel safe for people of color and trans folks of color. 

Chase:     Yeah, yeah. The more we niche down the inversion of safety.

Courn:     Yeah, yeah. Which makes me sad because I don't know, I think people think of Portland as a big like haven and people always tell me like, oh I can't wait to move to Portland. Like it's just going to be so great for me and there's certain aspects but it just really makes me think of how critically of even like I don't know the most queer friendly places that people think of aren't so queer friendly.

Chase:     It's still not that great.

Courn:     Yeah, which I'm like I mean it's even a privilege that we can do that here it shouldn't have to be but yeah it's a lot worse in other places for sure!

Chase:     It does feel a lot more like outwardly was it performative allyship right where it's a lot more like put the flag out in front of your house, and put the sign up that Black Lives Matter, and like all these things and then that's the extent in which you fight for those things and like really puts into question do you actually think that or are you just like fooling people because it's, it's almost worse. It's almost worse to do that then rather than just like not do anything at all. You know? Like don't put the flag out but then do absolutely nothing else to help support those communities or you know make any progress towards advancement of society.

Courn:     I didn't even think about that. I know you're so right. Like just the amount of like pride flags around town and not just pride flags but also like trans flags too. Then I'm just like y'all are not inclusive places.

Chase:     Like are you actually inclusive or are you just inclusive of trans folks who have like fully transitioned to the point that they want to transition to and they might pass for something and now you're accepting of that?

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     Like are you actually going to you know support and be friendly to those in any point of transition?

Courn:     Yep.

Chase:     Okay wow, we've really divulged from places that I don't feel like I have a ton of room to talk, but that's my hot take. And we're starting the episode off right away with that.

Courn:     I'm for it.

Chase:     I feel like for my relationship and for me and like maybe my journey of like gender expression, especially once I came out, I was a lot more femme presenting. I feel like I got fetishized a lot more by men when they found out I was gay. Because I was like dressing and appearing more feminine then I would say like oh my girlfriend or my partner right and then obviously eventually wife, and then people who either knew me before that or maybe didn't know I was gay and like maybe thought they were like trying to hit on me or something and find out I was gay and be like, oh and then they would turn it real creepy real fast.

Courn:     A challenge!

Chase:     Yeah, challenge and or like yeah trying to insert themselves into anything that literally didn't involve them whatsoever. So yeah we'd be talking about something random and I will say it probably happened a lot more because of like my field right. Like working in the fitness space. Like that happened a lot of work, especially cause like I was pretty fresh to being out when I like went back to personal training. So I feel like even just my identity and security in that was a lot different. And so people probably could sense that take advantage or just be like, oh she's just out because she's just trying to get attention or like trying to be hot or like that kind of crap so I feel like that's another layer of like just the lesbian experience. Yeah, it's pretty gross.

Courn:     Yeah, I feel like I just don't have a similar experience probably just because I've been dating my partner for like, I don't know, 10 years. So I never really had to do the active dating scene, nor did I have like a reason to like, I don't know, be out with people like openly about my sexuality and stuff. I mean, I already had a partner. I'm not looking for anyone. And honestly, people don't hit on me very often. And I think I'm kind of glad for that. Maybe a little sad about it too, but-

Chase:     Mixed bag.

Courn:     Yeah, men have never really hit on me, especially since I've cut my hair and started dressing more colorful. It is just man-repellent and it is kind of great.

Chase:    I was gonna say, is that the worst thing?

Courn:     No, so when people do hit on me, it's usually just like women or non-gender conforming people, which I think is the highest compliment. And every time I'm just like, yeah, I'm dating someone, but thank you.

Chase:     Can you please tell your story about those two humans in the park who really affirmed your gender identity?

Courn:     I was like, what are you talking about? And then I remembered.

Chase:     Cause it's so good. And I feel like it's such a good laugh. You don't have to share. 

Courn:     No, it's fine. I think I was coming back from my haircut and I was like wearing a pretty like femme outfit too. Like I was wearing like a long plaid dress with like a turtleneck underneath, just had my hair fresh cut to like a pink mullet, very typical Courn. And as I was like walking on the other side of the sidewalk, there was like what appeared to be like two very stereotypical finance bros. Like they were in suits, they were calling each other dude every two seconds. I crossed the corner and the first guy said, Oh, did you see her? He's like, oh my god. Yeah, but they look like a they them actually. And they both just start like, *annoying laughing* like they're making fun of me because I just was like some, you know, like liberal looking like person. And it still gets me because I know they meant it as an insult, but I was like, ooh, I am a they/them. Like so affirming!

Chase:     Hell yeah. You're like trying to insult me by saying they/them, that's what I want fool!

Courn:     Yeah I'm like they don't know that they made my day because they misgendered and corrected me all within like two seconds so yeah I'll take it!

Chase:     That's, that's fair! I'm really excited for us to eventually do a gender episode it might have to come up pretty fast in this because I feel like gender and queerness are one in the same but not the same but like two very big topics that are like very intertwined. So eventually yeah we'll have to get to that eventually. Do you feel like talking a bit more about just the entire asexual umbrella and like breaking down just some like either experiences and or things you know of and want like the world to know about asexuality?

Courn:     Yeah, I mean it's definitely a really big topic but I think I kind of touched on some stuff that I wish people knew right away. Like having like a beginner's guide to asexuality. The biggest thing is that it's a spectrum. So like there's a whole like spectrum of from being completely sex repulsed, which I think is what people assume most asexual people are, completely valid. There's many reasons why people are sex repulsed. Could be medical, could be personal. There's like different reasons why people are sex repulsed. They're all valid under that umbrella. Anything between that to just not preferring sex or not needing it. There's different sub-identities within that like demisexual, which is someone who only wants to have sex with someone who they have a strong connection with. Graysexual is kind of in between like what we think of like pure sex repulsed asexual and demisexual. Like I'm kind of in that middle area.

Chase:     Between repulsed and sorry say again?

Courn:     Between being sex repulsed and not preferring sex.

Chase:     Okay!

Courn:     Like there's a lot of in between that with some people, like some people have sex, like a lot of asexual people still masturbate they still engage in sexual activity if it's for someone they like, doesn't actually mean they need it which is a lot of it. It's not just like whether you dislike it. It's like, if I didn't have to have sex for the rest of my life, I'd be fine. And I know some ace people will kind of like go back and forth on what that definition is, but like we don't need to be, you know, exclusitory. Other things that like asexual people just haven't met the right person. That's a common stereotype. Could not be more wrong. I met the right person. And I honestly think that's what made me realize it wasn't about that. Cause even with the perfect person that I consider my soulmate, I'm just like, I'm still not feeling it. I guess it's me guys.

Chase:     That's a great point. Yeah, that's a good point. 

Courn:     And I also just think there's a big spectrum too of like romantic attraction. Like a lot of people assume that if you're asexual you must be aromantic which means you don't want to have a romantic relationship with someone. That's valid too. There's plenty of ace people who are both, but assuming that's the default can be problematic. There's so many different types of attraction. Aesthetic attraction, emotional attraction, romantic attraction, physical attraction. So yeah, there's a lot of ways you can like someone that doesn't include wanting to get in their pants. And they're all valid. They also can be really different. And I think that's something that we don't touch on a lot in other queer identities. I think someone assumes that if you're gay, you're romantically and sexually attracted to someone of a different gender. But there's a lot of different types of attraction and for ace people, it matters a lot. So when I talk about being ace, you'll usually hear me say that I'm panromantic and I'm ace. And that's kind of just like for my own distinguishment but it doesn't mean you're entitled to know that if you don't know me.

Chase:     I love that, that is something that's common for like asexual is just breaking those things even down even further. It's helpful for you. I know like labels can be polarizing and kind of like pigeonhole people into some like identities they don't want to be, but like that's really cool to break down because I feel like from the homosexual standpoint, no it's just homosexual. There's like no talk about the romantic attraction either. And that can be really confusing especially for people who did not grow up in a household who even like talked about sex who were like didn't grow up in a sex positive household, or even grew up in like households where it was actively repressed like myself growing up in high control group. So that creates I feel like a lot of confusion around your sexual attraction, for instance, your romantic attraction, and like you said, all the other things. So here we are talking about it more, because it needs to be talked about more.

Courn:     Truly. I feel like it's a kind of a missing piece that, I don't know, it's also very personal. Like you shouldn't have to talk about that stuff if you don't want to, but I know it was very affirming for me just because the reason why I thought I wasn't gay for so long is because I didn't want to sleep with anyone. And I know there's a lot of people in similar situations where they may be questioning if they're gay, but maybe they don't want to sleep with someone of a different gender, or they don't want to have a relationship with someone of the same gender. Like there's so many different combinations that I think can be affirming if you're finding yourself like I don't feel completely gay, I don't feel completely like lesbian. Like there's different ways you can define that. And yeah, it can be like really invasive I think to like break it down. But I think for my own knowledge it's really helpful. I also think just because there's so much misinformation about what ace means that I feel obligated to talk further because if I just say I'm ace it leads a lot up for interpretation and I wish I didn't have to be like, oh I'm a panromantic asexual!

Chase:    Don't worry about it ah!

Courn:    Yeah yeah, it feels like I'm adding all these labels in but I'm-

Chase:     Justifying it immediately!

Courn:      Yeah and then I'm like you can go Google that if you wanna know what that is. Like, we're done here. 

Chase:     To like piggyback off of that, yeah, the labels can definitely be helpful. They can be overwhelming. But I think it also goes into a lot of like the definitions of what a person should be and how like that doesn't have to apply to everyone and that can almost cause more confusion. So yeah, it can be helpful like you said like breaking it down but I think I've also gone through on my own journey of like almost like a confusion because like oh this is what like homosexual should be and this is what a lesbian should be and like oh but like I'm having contradicting feelings so like am I still this? And then you start to like doubt your own identity, but in like a, not in a way of like, Oh, let me explore this about myself. You're like, wait, is this enough? Am I invalidating my own sexuality? Cause I'm not like the standard definition. So, especially like with lesbians, right. I feel like the, there's always like one femme and always one masc and that's like how it's kind of always been. And so if there's ever like a change in that and stuff, like how does that change the relationship and affect your view of your own and like your own validity of sexual identity?

Courn:     Oh, definitely. And like, I don't know, I feel like you touched on it previously, but just adding in the topic of gender in it just makes it so much more confusing. When you're questioning your gender identity, if your partner is, it adds a layer.

Chase:     But I think a good reminder too, because it does sound kind of grim, I don't know, but that it is always a spectrum. I feel like everything in life should be more of a spectrum based and just thinking of like it can be so many different blends and varieties of things rather than just always this or that. If it applies to you that way great that's fine!

Courn:     But also like okay to change too. I think a lot of people think that if you choose a label that you are just stuck with that forever. Like I've changed my gender identity label. I've changed my sexuality labels multiple times and like that's totally normal too. I know that can be like really daunting like you have to re-come out and stuff. No, like it doesn't have to be a big deal. Like if you resonate with a label, like use it. You know, no one's gonna like, I don't know, make you hit a criteria list. It's weird, like I don't know, no one's choosing these labels to be purposely ostracized. Like, I don't know, people make it seem like it's like a thing to be trendy to be gay and queer and stuff. It's not. So yeah. 

Chase:      I hate when people also say like the piece of it's it's trendy to be queer and like everyone like just everyone's gay now.

Courn:     My question is is it trendy to be queer or just do all the cool people that you know are queer? Because that's the thing.

Chase:     Hot take!

Courn:     Because I feel like they always be dressed in the best, they be doing cool stuff. I think that's why. Being authentic.

Chase:     Yeah, it's the authenticity.

Courn:     Like so many, I feel like popular social media people are like gay and like oh, they're making it trendy because they're just like a gay person on the internet, showing their lifestyle.

Chase:     And finally being the popular ones!

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     Rather than the boring straights!

Courn:     But I'm also just like, I'm also just like we have all these anti trans bills coming out all this public harassment still on a daily basis for gay people all across the world.

Chase:     Question your safety.

Courn:     Yeah, don't tell me it's trendy when people literally get murdered and hate crimed.

Chase:     Yes.

Courn:     Legally discriminated against. Like, I don't know.

Chase:      Lose their jobs, have to move places, have to like protect their identity, like lose connections to their family and community. Like...

Courn:     I just don't even entertain that conversation anymore. People say, oh you're just doing that because it's trendy. Like if I'm just, if I'm part of a marginalized identity and existing and showing that, that doesn't mean I'm making it trendy.

Chase:     That's true. What was it? There was like a really kind of trendy TikTok video going around when TikTok first came out and it was like someone asking white women like how would you feel if you became a Black woman for the day? In a way of like if you say you're such an ally, put yourself in their shoes for that. Would you genuinely take their role in their life for a whole day and like be willing to just live life like that because again it there's, it's such, like you can't it's it's so hard to put into words like how different it is from that perspective when you're not in it but...

Courn:     Yeah I would love to see these answers because I can just imagine them scrambling!

Chase:     Oh yeah it was one of those like yeah-

Courn:     I don't know! 

Chase:     It was like, one of those weird like Chelsea Handler asking questions for you know stuff, and so like yeah of course they all had some horrible answers and weird stuff to say but you know it's not trendy. It's not trendy to actively put yourself in danger.

Courn:     Yeah. I'm like people just trying to-

Chase:     Is the call coming from inside the house though? Are you just looking from afar cause you wished you were in it?

Courn:     I just think they're mad cause they're not as cool.

Chase:     That too. 

Courn:     Respectfully.I'm like all the coolest people I know are gay and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Chase:     There's a reason we all group up and become friends and like super group up Yeah, yeah.

Courn:     Agree!

Chase:     Gender and sexuality can change. I think that's a great point too right like different attractions can change different points in your life and different experiences and you can realize maybe you are or are not attracted to certain things and that's totally valid. Give yourself the freedom to change your mind and also have different things as you grow as a person because hopefully you are not the same person you were as a five-year-old. So who you are maybe as a 25-year-old might not be the same when you're like 40.

Courn:     True. Wise words from Chase? Let's go.

Chase:     Hot take number 3. So yeah, don't be afraid to let that change. And then also supporting people through those changes. Don't be mad if they say one thing and then they change their mind and go back to the other. That's weird. 

Courn:     Just let people people live. People are, we're all trying to figure stuff out. I am.

Chase:     Life is too short to care this much about other people's sex lives and gender.

Courn:     Truly.

Chase:     Like this world is huge. The earth is kind of pretty. You should go maybe explore and try some new foods rather than carrying what genitalia someone was born with.

Courn:     Correct.

Chase:     I don't necessarily want to retell my coming out story in this episode. If people want to hear it, like that's fine. But can we talk about just like the difference of almost like when you come out to certain people. Let's just say cis, hetero people the like question about coming out and like almost like where you're at with that versus someone who is in the LGBTQ community asking like your story, or not even asking but like having conversations being like oh how was it for this? Or are you out to your family? Like yeah the difference of those reactions and the intent behind those questions, did you have anything like that?

Courn:     Yeah, well I mean I honestly avoided most of these conversations with my family. But I will say I feel like some friends that I've come out to that are cis, just, it just felt like it was an invitation for a whole conversation that I didn't wanna have. Like obviously very invasive questions and stuff. People just being like very shocked and like, I don't know, just like feeling like I needed to explain so much some about it. And then I felt like when I told other queer people, like they were just like, oh, cool.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     And then like, maybe there'd be a couple of follow-up questions like, oh yeah, like, did your family know? Or just like, oh, like I know this great ace group! Like, like so warm and inviting, like didn't make a big thing out of that. and I think that's it. Like yeah I feel like seeing someone adding a new identity being like, oh this changes everything, versus just like oh you're just unraveling a little part of me. I'm still the same person I was like yeah I don't know it's definitely a big difference in reaction. How about you?

Chase:     Yeah I think at first I was probably friends with also a lot more like toxic people who like you know didn't treat it very great but yeah I think it also happens more naturally when someone in the community asks about it, or like asks if they can ask about it. Right? Like I feel like there's also yeah that like oh like if you don't mind me asking, or like you know you don't have to answer this, if you don't have to answer this if it's too personal but like what about this or that you know versus just like like you said oh I'm gay, oh wow whoa, really does your family know?? Like that is such a different like reaction so it was kind of feel like I've blocked memories out of those people. It's like almost like not existing. So maybe it was bad. Or even maybe because we've all had that kind of common experience in a similar way or kind of know where each person's coming from a bit more and know how to be sensitive about asking those things. I think it's just different, any time questions, I would say what was what is it like intent versus impact, right like how did you like the intent of the question versus like the impact it had?

Courn:     Yeah, I think it's also just a lot of tact in those conversations on how you approach them. Like I don't know I feel like if someone I like am good friends with and they ask me about my sexuality and they do in a way that's not weird and they're just like or they're just asking for your consent to ask and things like that like, oh like I don't know if you're comfortable sharing, like that makes such a difference versus like I don't know random strangers demanding a question. You gay? Tell me!

Chase:     Are you sure?

Courn:     You look gay! Like yeah that's that's not how you should approach it!

Chase:     Yeah yeah yeah yeah! Oh I got a good question for you. How do you feel about the use of partner when someone is not in the LGBTQ community?

Courn:     Oh see this one I got like a real mixed take on because I've heard so many sides and I feel like the core sentiment against it is that, you know, obviously straight people have not experienced the harassment and violence that can come with disclosing the gender of your partner and why you had to use partner, and even using the term partner how that would just instantly invite people to say, oh they're gay, and get targeted. So it's just kind of like not knowing that history and then co-opting the term, like oh this is my partner, because you want to keep the gender vague. It can be really hurtful. But I also hear this argument that's like, kind of similarly with pronouns, like saying like, oh, well, if we normalize, everyone's saying the pronouns, like even if you are cis, it sets the stage for other people to be comfortable talking about their pronouns and similarly with partner. If you don't disclose the gender of your partner, then someone else doesn't have to and someone who doesn't want to share. So it's like a mixed bag for me. Like I think I'm guilty of using partner because I think as someone who romantically is attracted to people of all genders, when I say terms that are gendered, even though I'm married to a cis man, it feels weird to me. It feels icky and maybe that's some internalized problems I have, but I hate calling my partner a husband. Like that makes me so sick. And I don't know, maybe that's just like some heteronormative terms I hate. I don't even like spouse. That sounds like weird and formal. So like I like using partner when I don't feel like it's other people's business. But do people assume automatically that you mean someone that's not like a man? Yes, they do mean that. So yeah, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are. 

Chase:     When you said that the first time to me, I think I didn't even account for that side of it of like, we kind of have to like normalize it in a way. But also I'm like, do we have to normalize it? Can it just be ours? Like almost like I just want like ownership of a few things. Like everything always gets taken in those communities and not always in such a supportive way.

Courn:     I agree. I also just think the context matters too. It's always a red flag to me if a straight person is consistently using partner all the time.

Chase:     Correct. 

Courn:     Like it's one time to like slip it once when you're introducing. Like you're like, oh yeah I have a partner but like I know their name, I know what their gender is. Like just say their name or something but if like you always go out of your way to say partner like that's kind of like weird to me.

Chase:     My favorite is when people say partner but then like are in a relationship like with a cis person and I mean I, you know, I don't know their like sexuality but like they look like a straight couple, but they won't like they won't they'll use they in like a to try to like appear like cool or good or like safe. But like they're just like negate they're like almost making it worse by not just saying, oh my partner, he/this or like something like that, right?

Courn:     Not me thinking that so many cis people in Portland are gay because they're like, oh my partner and use they and I'm like-

Chase:     Yeah and you're like, oh cool!

Courn:     Like you're just like me!

Chase:     Yeah like how nice and then you're like, oh you're just oh-

Courn:     Yeah, then you find out yeah their partner's name is John. It's just some white cis dude and you're like damn.

Chase:     Kyle.

Courn:     Why is it always Kyle?

Chase:     Yeah I mean there's like a there's there is a difference in a way with that I mean I yeah yeah.

Courn:     Yeah I don't know it's kind of a hot take that I don't really want people using it...

Chase:     But at the same time like you said if everyone were to like use it in like a normalized way, would it be it would it protect the queer community more?

Courn:     Yeah do we need that protection? Like yeah do we need to get rid of the factors that are causing people to get harassed for saying you know that they have a partner of a same or similar gender.

Chase:     Or the fact that some people might not even say partner and like they would have they would almost rather appear like single than like mentioning a partner for their safety in whatever situation they're in. If it's not a time or place that they can like make that information public. What about if they said like life partner? Would that be different?

Courn:     I mean, I feel like life partner has some similar connotations, but I don't know. I also think it's just like it's one of those hard things to have a hard and fast rule because obviously, first glance, you have no idea what someone's relationship dynamic is, even if you know that person.

Chase:     It's also none of your business at first glance!

Courn:     Yeah, because I think about, I don't know, like my spouse. I tell them to say, my partner, because I am non-binary and that matters a lot to me. But as an outsider, you may see me and be like, oh, they're very femme presenting like, oh, they're misusing it. So like it's hard to like enforce that. Like I'm not going to go around being like, oh-

Chase:     Partner police!

Courn:     Are they cis? Like, are you in a hetero relationship? Like, no, cause you're just setting yourself up for failure because like clearly queerness, gender identities, look so many different ways. So, I think it gets slippery trying to enforce that.

Chase:     True!

Courn:     I think that's why I don't have a super strong feeling on it. I'm just like, I just get a weird feeling from people when they use it too much.

Chase:     And that's what this podcast will always boil down to, is just our feelings and experiences with these things. Not trying to make hard, fast rules for anyone. If anything, just like get people to think about things more ask yourself some stuff and like yes that's that's about it.

Courn:     That is it!

Chase:     I mean yeah, even just like with the titling of a relationship though, and like the part in the gender expression, people also like use husband and wife, I feel like a spouse but they're not like legally government involved married. and like yeah that you know and then I feel like that happened with my wife and I's when we like officially made it like government official, people would always kind of ask like oh like, like what kind of like married, married? Yeah like no we just committed like you know it's like that kind of weird stuff, but whatever. 

Courn:     See, I feel like I hear less of that, but I'm just like, I feel like people always assume that I'm just like, by default, I'm not married because I'm young.

Chase:     True!

Courn:     That turns out I'm just stupid and got married young-

Chase:     But at least he's a good dude!

Courn:     You know yeah he's solid, he's solid!

Chase:     But he's not a Kyle!

Courn:     So no!

Chase:     Yeah I feel like it happened especially yeah maybe because I am younger and then also like, I don't know, I don't go around talking at work about just like, I'm gay in my gay life, you know, It's just kind of like, I'll be like, yeah, like my partner. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh yeah. And like my wife and the people were like, wait, you're married?

Courn:     Yeah. But people treat it like that. Yeah. I also like to say it gets like an interesting thing. Cause people are just like, oh, but you couldn't get married, you know, ten some years ago. So like, of course you're want to get married. And I'm like, obviously different queer people feel differently about marriage and stuff.

Chase:     I was gonna say that piece too!Yyeah I mean that is also a piece of it right like you're right I couldn't get married ten years ago. Yeah. I was not of age. I'm just kidding. But like yeah.

Courn:     You're in a different state.

Chase:     I'll set up those Midwest-Southern states. Back to the South, baby.

Courn:     Had to have been a boy, though, so. 

Chase:    Aww.

Courn:     A little J-Dub boy. 

Chase:     And a cousin.

Courn:     Eww. Yikes.

Chase:     Yikes is right. Do you feel like you had to unpack and maybe currently are unpacking? I don't know. Any internalized homophobia?

Courn:     So much.

Chase:     That's a big topic. We will. We should make a whole episode on that. But I mean, where do you start with that? Can you touch on it? Do we have to save it for another episode?

Courn:     I feel like, okay, well I'm, it's still very much an active process for me, but I think a very clear example, I think which started that unpacking for me was when I first realized that I was panromantic. I didn't want to come out or tell anyone because I thought, well, I'm in a relationship with a man and that's good enough. I made it work with a man. And I think this feeling I had was like, I don't understand why, you know, other pan people don't just make it work in a hetero relationship so you get less harassment and obviously like that was very short-sighted and very bigoted of me. But I definitely had a lot of those feelings that was just like, oh it's just so much easier, and I think I don't know, I think a lot of us have different internalized homophobia about how people present. I think I feel this less, but I feel like a lot of people just feel like if you look overtly gay or you act overtly gay, or like, what does that even mean? Like that that's bad representation. Like I'm this type of gay, not that type of gay. And I think that's less applicable to me as an ace person but I definitely see people say that to me, like even though I don't know, I'm not like, I mean I am queer, but I'm not like fully gay. I've had people tell me like oh I'm not that type of gay looking at me. Like, I don't dye my hair bright colors. I don't like have a gender representation. I just look so out there. And like, to me that just like virtue signals so much internalized homophobia. People just like, oh, you have to look this way. You have to look femme or masc. So yeah, I think there's always work to be done. I don't know. I feel like I've always had some internalized transphobia and I definitely think that comes from society and it's taken a lot to acknowledge that. But man, it's rough. It's rough out there. It's tough.

Chase:     Cause I feel like how, like, I don't know, for me, there's like the guilt of like, how am I homophobic? But I'm in the like homo community or something, right? I'm like, how, like how, like, but it truly, it's like all those like little things that you like don't think of. Cause like most of us are not going to be like outwardly transphobic ,homophobic, but like there might be something you like think to yourself or like your initial like reaction to something you're like wait a sec pause, rewind, I forget did you you didn't grow up with any religion right?

Courn:     I mean I technically went to a private school, Lutheran, okay school for like up until third grade and my mom's pretty religious but like I didn't really go to church so I won't as soon as I went to public school, no religion.

Chase:    That must be nice!

Courn:     Kind of though cuz that stuff, I don't know, wild, I just, the added layer I feel like of I don't know internalized homophobia and shame that comes from the church. Oooooh-

Chase:     Yeah!

Courn:     I can only imagine.

Chase:     Yeah yeah. Yep. As someone who was raised in a high control group.

Courn:     I know we've talked about this. Yeah

Chase:     Yeah. Yeah. There's like a whole extra layer, thick crusty layer to like sort through. And once you get to the bottom, there's still more. Then you get to the bottom and you're like, oh, there's still more. You're just like digging and digging and it's pretty rough.

Courn:     I agree.

Chase:     Especially with like gender roles and relationship right like all the shoulds. You should marry a man if you're a woman. If you're a man you should marry a woman. Man should be like the bread winner and take care of the house like all that crap. But yeah I'm still unpacking mine.

Courn:     I think that also just gets translated into like I don't know toxic and stereotypical representations of just like even gay people, one being masc, one being femme, like how those representations are still I don't know being carried over that's very much internalized homophobia.

Chase:     Yeah, and I would say with my experiences with like the lesbian community there's still a ton of that like toxicity around two fems being in a relationship or fem presenting you know people versus the like masc and fem in a relationship or even just like the two mascs in a relationship. There's definitely a lot of stereotypes there.

Courn:     Oh I just thought of a good thing that I've been grappling with lately is, I feel like someone put me in my place because they told me I was trans and I said I don't think I am and they said oh, but are you not identifying with a different gender than the one you were born with? Or like, that is the definition of trans. And I had this knee jerk reaction and I think about it and I was like, oh yeah. And then I realized so many other NB people were using the term trans and I was just wondering why I felt so much resistance to using that term. And I'm like, ooh, that doesn't feel hot. Like clearly I have some sentiment that that others me or puts me in a bucket that I don't feel like I belong to. And like, I think there's also some valid things of just maybe feeling like you don't fit in that if your gender presentation isn't changing visually a lot, which does not encapsulate what transness is. But I think that made me really think about it as a non-binary person. That I'm like, yeah, I am trans and there's no shame in using that word. 

Chase:     Do you think it was coming from like one or the other, maybe one, maybe both of like the shame piece, or was it just like awareness of taking up space in a place you were weren't sure you could take up space in a way, if that's like the right, I don't know if that's the right way to put it. 

Courn:     Yeah, no, and I feel like it's both. Like I thought it was just because I was like, oh, I don't want to take up space in a trans community. But I'm just like, but-

Chase:     -then you dug deeper. 

Courn:     Yeah. And then I thought about it. I was like, oh, but why don't I? Cause I'm like, even besides that, I'm just like, so why am I not claiming the title even personally for myself? And I was like, ooh, There's some internalized transphobia in there.

Chase:     Fun fact and good rule of thumb, if your initial reaction is to deny and say no, there might be something there folks, for anything. Truly. Just a fun fact. We can take that example completely out of context. Someone at work one day said something to me and they're like, oh, do you think you might be taking too much work on? And I immediately went, no, I'm fine. I'm really good at balancing everything. I'm actually really working on balancing it. And then I paused and looked at them and they looked at me and I just went, oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. Yeah. Maybe I am, you know, so like that. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that.

Courn:     It reminds me of like those TikTok videos where it's like, oh, me in third grade defending my gay best friend. He's just, he's he's he's not he's not gay at all. He's completely normal. He loves girls! We're in a relationship! And I'm just like, that was me? Like claiming to any sense of like normalcy and not sticking out. Yeah, if you're defending it that hard, you know, it's not always the case, but...

Chase:     In our experience, 9 times out of 10.

Courn:     Yeah, although I hate to, I feel like there's that weird stereotype that like the most homophobic people, like are secretly gay. And I also, I freaking hate that stereotype. Cause I feel like, cause it puts, you're pretty much saying that the reason that people are homophobic is other gay people. Like, I feel like it puts so much pressure on them. It's like, also just don't force sexuality on people. There's a lot of reasons why people are homophobic. That's not because they're grappling with their own sexuality. People are just freaking assholes too. Like I just don't like, and also I feel like he gets to use an excuse even if someone is like in the closet that doesn't give them excuse to be a fucking asshole to people. Like I just hate when people make that comment in passing.

Chase:     True. Without knowing literally any other context and that's like the first reaction.

Courn:     Yeah, it just feels like it puts the blame on gay people. When I'm like, not the systems that are forcing people to either align and be very oppressive towards gay people, or be gay. That's the only two options.

Chase:     But like also you can be gay and also homophobic and like oppress the people in your own community.

Courn:     Yeah. It's like a double edged sword.

Chase:     But I think, yeah. So like, yeah, it's not like one or the other. No that's true. I mean sometimes you have to question why someone is fighting it so hard. 

Courn:     Those conversion camp people? Agree.

Chase:     Yeah and it's just like why do you care so much to make fun of these people and to make jokes and to go out of your way to call them out if you don't, if you didn't like why do you care so much? Yeah, the question because, if you didn't care you wouldn't really be saying that or like you would have other jokes and other things to say but if it's always that like maybe there's something there.

Courn:     Yeah I think that's valid too!

Chase:     Yeah interesting point though about like the trans label with non-binary, I don't know, if there's a reason why they're together and always trans non-binary. It's always kind of in the same umbrella. My wife talks about that a lot and like being non-binary in a way like is never sure to like again the space of like the trans label but like you know not taking resources but like helping the community, but like yeah it's such a wild time.

Courn:     I'm also just like as an average person I feel like it you're not taking away resources or like you know no but like accountability or like-

Chase:     Does it normalize it more yeah so you then use those terms more yeah than being like, oh yeah I'm not the stereotypical hormone taking whatever, you know, care the gender for me care, but like it falls under the umbrella. So could it just add to that definition and normalize it more? I don't know.

Courn:     See that's the thing!

Chase:     I can't really speak for that. I'm not in that community.

Courn:     But it just feels like there's privileged groups in every identity. And for me, it feels like as someone who presents as a cis person, it's like, I'm always gonna be on a privileged side of the trans community. I feel like I'm on a privileged side of the Asian community because I'm light-skinned and white passing. I feel like I'm a privileged side of autism because I have lower support needs. Like I just think there's acknowledgement but that doesn't mean you can't like claim a label, but I'm always hesitant when I don't know people enter communities and massive numbers that are at a privileged point of view and then use that to become the new default. And I think that's what people are really worried about. But like, I get it. I think there's somewhere in between where people can claim that label and it doesn't mean they have to be the only ones talking, but I don't know, these algorithms seem to really like privileged people, so it makes it hard. 

Chase:     Float them to the top. Yeah.

Courn:     To end this sode!

Chase:     Psst. To end the sode, which I've been banned from calling the episodes, sodes, they have to be episodes, epi, eps, I feel like one final story to tell which is kind of funny is how I got recruited into the like local soccer league I'm in. Have I told you this story?

Courn:     I don't think so. 

Chase:     How I got recruited to Lavender League? I was at work and another trainer's client who you know we were kind of like friendly like passing friendly I call it we kind of just like say hi or like you make little comments but you know like friends, friends, like an established friendship and she like I think I was leaving the room when I was like, oh, see you folks or something. She goes, wait, like, do you play soccer? I was like, not really, no. And she was just like, well, like, would you want to? I was like, sure, I guess. Why? What's up? She's like, oh, like, well, you should join our queer soccer league, like it's super awesome, it's like totally inclusive ,and like it doesn't matter what skill set, but like you should join! And I was like okay sure, thanks. But I don't think I've ever told this person why I like sexuality at all, but I was just kind of laughing on the fact that I look really gay. And so they-

Courn:     They clocked you. 

Chase:     Yeah, they clogged me. They are part of the community, and so it was fine. But I was just almost offended at first, but not really. You know?

Courn:     No, I think it's affirming.

Chase:     Yeah, you're just kind of like, oh, okay, thanks. I'm glad the signal's working.

Courn:     I do feel like I have a similar thing at the roller rink.

Chase:    Yeah?

Courn:    Yeah because I go to the roller rink a lot and skate and like after I've been going there for months someone came up to me and they're like, you do know that there's like a queer night on Mondays, the first Monday every month. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I know.

Chase:     I do know, it's Thursday, but thanks.

Courn:     I'm like, they clocked me like that, even in my little workout outfit.

Chase:     Yes. Gay! 

Courn:     So I don't know. I kind of love that. I love, I like being clocked by other queer people.

Chase:     I would say it's different. Yeah, it's okay if you're getting clocked by the others.

Courn:     Then I feel like that's not being clocked. That's like queer-dar.

Chase:     Yeah, you're like looking, which my gay-dar is trash we'll go into that another time, okay I gotta go fix it! Bye!

Courn:     Bye!

Chase:     Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here, Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!