Episode 22: Women’s sports > men’s sports
Chase: Welcome to Neurotakes. I'm Chase.
Courn: This is Courn.
Chase: Let's get into it!
Courn: Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do! Is that sporty?
Chase: No, it’s like give me a “Y”! Give me an “M”! Ya know, I don’t know.
Courn: EA Sports!
Chase: It's in the game!
Courn: That may be trademarked…but, that’s the vibe!
Chase: We might have to blur believe that but-
Courn: That's the vibes for today.
Chase: Yeah, that's fair! I was gonna start off by asking are you watching any of the WNBA playoffs? But I can assume the answer is no.
Courn: No, I don't watch any sports.
Chase: I'm not surprised by that.
Courn: Yeah, although if I would, like if you invited me over to watch that, I would be like, yeah, yeah, women's sports.
Chase: Yeah, because we don't watch any other sports in this house. It's only women's sports now.
Courn: That feels right.
Chase: Made the hard switch.
Courn: I think you need to do that to even the balance.
Chase: Yeah, no regrets, best decision of my life. Not only from cuties playing soccer and hot people playing sports, men's sports is just like boring compared to women's.
Courn: That's what I hear, but not from men.
Chase: Oh no, men worship that stuff, so I'm excited to talk about this. This is a special interest of mine now for sure.
Courn: Oh yeah.
Chase: For sure I took a hard turn into this.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Do you remember when I started watching soccer? I was like SOCCER, SOCCER, SOCCER-
Courn: It literally came out of nowhere, and everytime like, oh, Chase posted a story. I wonder what this is about.
Chase: Nothing but soccer. Nothing but soccer.
Courn: I mean no shame.
Chase: You know, gotta even the playing field. Well, the WNBA playoffs are going on. My first qualm is that we have to start it off by calling it WNBA.
Courn: Right?
Chase: Why can't it just be NBA? And then we differentiate men's and women's.
Courn: I was just asking Raymond about that the other day. I was like, very confused. I was like, wait, shouldn't they rename the NBA then to men's NBA?
Chase: MNBA? That’s what they should do!
Courn: Yeah, and he just said, well, they had it first and I'm like, okay, but like, that's like, well, they're different organizations.
Chase: So? That’s a weak argument.
Courn: And I was like, but they use the same logo, except one has like a little-
Chase: One looks like a girl and one looks like a boy.
Courn: There's a little ponytail on the back.
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: And they're like, yeah, add a W.
Chase: You have to have an extra letter in that.
Courn: Better than an L than to get a W. *fake laughs* Sports humor!
Chase: No. I'm looking up the logo because I want to see. I can't remember what it looks like.
Courn: Because it's just like the blue and red stripe thing.
Chase: Yeah, it's like the same. No, it's orange. I forget.
Courn: Oh, it's different?
Chase: It's orange. So everything, yeah, that's weak. But it looks similar because it's like a vertical, like going up for the layup type of deal.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: But I mean.
Courn: I kind of like that it's different then.
Chase: And that's why everything is like orange and it's like, welcome to the W, you know.
Courn: Honestly, better colors cause red and blue, like how nationalist, gross!
Chase: So, I was gonna say, so American, so patriotic, ugly. Ew. And it's not even them jumping. It's like a dribble. It's like turning. So, we're here to talk about gay sports today and you can ask all the gay questions about sports because I know a lot about them, really only just soccer and basketball. Now, I grew up watching a lot of men's football with my dad like NFL was on weekly. So I unfortunately know a lot about that.
Courn: Yeah?
Chase: It's very, it's too much. Yeah, I know.
Courn: I mean you look at me you would think I'm not a sports person. I weirdly did have a big sports phase in like elementary middle school mainly because I didn't want to be like other girls and I wanted to be cool and relatable with guys especially I grew up with 2 brothers so I always knew about basketball stuff.
Chase: Little pick-me over there.
Courn: Yeah, I did have a phase where, yeah it was very pick-me. I had a Jermaine O'Neal poster.
Chase: Who?
Courn: Jermaine O'Neal for the Pacers. I thought he was very cute. I still do.
Chase: Okay.
Courn: He wasn't even that good of a player.
Chase: Oh yeah.
Courn: But I was like yeah.
Chase: This is it. It's giving.
Courn: So I was really into basketball and I played basketball through middle school. I didn't play it in high school I was too uncoordinated. But I did really like basketball and we watched a lot of that growing up. Never liked football, never could understand what they were doing. I even did cheerleading for a year for football and had no idea what the rules were and sang all those songs that were like, sack that quarterback. Yeah, I don't know what the fuck that means!
Chase: Oh I forget about those, it is! Cheerleading is also kind of weird, I don't like that.
Courn: That's always a weird thing to say when I'm like oh, I did cheerleading people are like, oh that seems really unlike you Courn and I'm like, I went to a really small school so cheerleading was not like what you see in the movies like we were not the cool kids.
Chase: You're like we're not like Bring it On and whatever that big competition show is that happens every year or whatever.
Courn: No, I was in my pick me stage even through high school and I was like oh I want to be cool this was freshman year and I want to be girly and get a boyfriend so I need to do cheerleading.
Chase: Yeah, back when you thought like the male gaze was all that you needed and that was the highest esteem and like highest accolade a “woman” could earn was the man's gaze and attention.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Gross!
Courn: I wore a pencil skirt and a tank top every day for like 6 months.
Chase: Gotta show off that booty!
Courn: I didn’t even have nothing! *laughs* I’m so flat, I’m still so flat!
Chase: True, you were a skinny Asian. You were a skinny Asian!
Courn: Yeah…
Chase: That's fair. That's fair. Doing cheerleading and band and what did you track? You did track?
Courn: Yeah I did volleyball too.
Chase: Oh that's right, that's right.
Courn: Also small school stuff, like we were just bad at everything. So every person was on every single team. If you were remotely athletic, I was not even athletic, but my brothers were. So that meant by default, I also had to do sports and I was fine.
Chase: I really joke about like, could have been a D1 athlete, but I, I think like literally had I been able to play sports as a kid I probably would-
Courn: You have the drive for sure!
Chase: I would have played, I would have played college for sure and like gone up to collegiate but I don't know if I would have gone pro. I wish I would have, I just I liked it, I was interested in it, I was relatively like good at it, just just like people are naturally good at arts and music and whatever else like I think that's naturally athletic.
Courn: Wow!
Chase: Which sounds so shitty but like I feel like when people say they're naturally gifted at guitar or like music, nobody gives that same attitude, isn't that interesting?
Courn: Yeah, well I also think I think it's a combination of 2. I think it's a big thing about drive. It's about power. No, I'm not going to go there! But no, I do think that sports-
Chase: Power of will!
Courn: Because like respectfully, I was so bad at sports, but I'm also the type of person who's bad at everything. So I have to try really, really hard. So like when I wanted to join basketball middle school, I literally practiced for 2 whole years in a row. All I did was shoot free throws and practice layups at home. And then I was like, good enough to start, which was average.
Chase: I think it has a lot to do with your, proprioception too. And obviously we can get into that and like the neurodivergent side of all that because athletics are a lot of understanding where your body is, how to move it faster, how to regain your balance, and like the acceleration, deceleration, that transition, all those things and like moving directions so. I mean I, I would imagine that plays a role both in just like your interest in sports, but then also like the skill of being good. Cause, but I've also, I don't know. I feel like I've always been, have really good proprioception and like hand-eye coordination, like video games and stuff.
Courn: I mean, maybe you just didn't get that. I feel like I have really good hand-eye coordination with hands and stuff. But something about just full body movement, like I don't know, I feel like this came up really early when I did ballet and other stuff as a kid that was just like everyone would tell me I looked weird. And I feel like I've heard this sentiment among like other autistic people too and like other neurodivergent people saying that they like have the autistic walk or the autistic dance. It's like really awkward or robotic and like no, how like no matter how many times you try to practice something like you just can't mimic that body movement and that's how I've always been like I cannot mimic people's body movements quite right. I always mess up like, I don't know, I played volleyball through high school and I still could never spike a ball in the air. It was just too much coordination for me but like I was a starting setter. I just couldn't do the hitting. That was just something I did not have the coordination to do. I don't know why I still can't do that shit, but I'm like, oh, I can do really ridiculous little handy crafts with my hands and some people are like completely opposite.
Chase: True like the fine motor skill.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: True, like your fine motor skill and like steady hand of just like all the painting you do even just like I think back to the the graphic design 101 class we had where we did all those cuts with the like, exactly.
Courn: I freaking loved that!
Chase: You were so freaking good and I just remember being like so jealous of like holy shit, how are your hands so steady and like you truly like really steady hand with that so I mean it's like the question of nature and nurture. Which came first chicken or the egg?
Courn: I like to think it's somewhat trained but I definitely think there's like, I don't know, genetic things things that make you predisposition to like be better at something for sure. I mean, I think you look at the Olympics, whatever they talk about like Michael Phelps wingspan of his arms like it's genetically superior to swim and I'm like okay.
Chase: Yeah to a degree. There is genetics, there's your epigenetics and then like also like like we talked about all the other socio-economic things that play into that resources availability, privilege and class and all that stuff but that's a big tangent from sports I appreciate that, I like that, that was solid but coming back to the difference between men's and women's sports and having to say women's every time and it's always assumed the men's sports. I'm now starting to just change my vernacular and always say oh, men's basketball, like women's soccer like that's just I'm just like made a point to start doing that and seeing how people react.
Courn: It feels like the difference between wedding and gay wedding. Like you always have to say like, I'm going to a gay wedding.
Chase: Sorry cousin. This is my partner. This is my gay partner.
Chase: Yeah. Yeah.
Courn: I think it's a big deal to, I don't know, reclaim that language and assume that women could be the default, especially in a space that they haven't been.
Chase: Yeah. And once I really saw the default was men all the time, again, thanks patriarchy. I feel like I can't unsee it now how many things we just assume like the male pronouns and like all the male dominance in that, so it's so great, I'm so excited, I'm here for the sports.
Courn: I'm so about it honestly it kind of makes me want to get back into basketball again mainly just because I feel really embarrassed that I was big into basketball and honestly I didn't even know that the women's NBA existed.
Chase: Same.
Courn: And I mean that's just where I was my family really big sports family we didn't watch any women's sports but we always had sports on.
Chase: Literally!
Courn: So I just like didn't know that like I never strive to like, I didn't get to watch women playing basketball. I watched men playing basketball. That's what I want to be.
Chase: Yeah. Well, and I remember just hearing all the rumors of like how they're not good and they're not, oh, they're just not as competitive. Like all the stereotypical bullshit when it's just the patriarchy further like creating the what gender inequity in that.
Courn: No, and I feel like I think it's interesting because I feel like we've come further. And I when I think of the Olympics, that's an example. Because I think people can recognize that like the importance of gender in the Olympics and like how much like strides we've made. And I feel like there's a lot of equality in Olympics where people are equally I think calling out women's athletes more than men's athletes and a lot of spaces which I think is really cool and I feel like I don't know basketball and other sports just really haven't caught up but it's the same thing, I mean these people are experts like these people are so incredibly highly skilled, like this is not you and me okay like all these gender-
Chase: Speak for yourself!
Courn: Okay, this is Chase, this could be Chase but I remember my brothers saying shit like in high school like they'd be like oh yeah I bet like I could play like professionally in women's basketball like, no you couldn't!
Chase: No, you could not. They are literally at the professional level and compete at the same way like, you literally couldn’t!
Courn: Like what? Just because you think you're tall. I'm like respectfully like they could-
Chase: Easily kick your ass. I think back to like, so there's a really famous girl woman in the W who went to U of O, Sabrina Ionescu. I don't know if you've heard of her. Yeah. She did a three-point competition at the All-Star game with Steph Curry and like literally went like toe for toe for everything. She lost by like 1 shot or something, like not even 2 shots. Like she was like so close, like because they were equally skilled and he was like giving her mad props and stuff so like no they're not that different.
Courn: No, but I feel like it takes like something like that yeah and that was like a really big deal, I saw that on social media. And people we’re like, oh my god a girl who can shoot, what a rarity!
Chase: A girl who can shoot as good as Steph Curry the GOAT. Okay, okay. There was a tennis player who did the same thing. She was 1 of the first like female athletes to then play like a male tennis like athlete star whoever it was and like I think she beat him so if you're listening to this y'all would probably you might know something Jean. I'm sorry, that's really bad that I don't know but yeah like they competed and like went over don't like just as good-
Courn: I mean Serena Williams, like Venus Williams.
Chase: That's too, it was like old school like before that and stuff but, no like what do you have thoughts on the biological argument and the difference especially when you start looking at trans and non-binary athletes like, do you have any thoughts around that?
Courn: I think for me I think there's a few different ways to look at it. Like if we're going to say like statistically, like yes, men on average are stronger and I think have higher specs that allow them to do like, I don't even think it's actually sports, but I think if you think of like quantities of like speed and strength, they usually win in those categories. But if you're talking about the different differentiations of being like, what makes a man, what makes a woman, I think that's a whole nother conversation because we can talk about intersex, we can talk about different hormone levels. There's so many factors that go into that. There's exceptions to everyone. But the assumption that men are inherently better than women in all sports is just false.
Chase: In all, blanket statement!
Courn: Yeah if you want to say the very best man, okay fine maybe in that respective thing, but on average are they usually better? It's like no, the numbers are actually pretty close for most things.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: So I just like I don't it's also just like something I don't care about. Like I think that to me is kind of like a red flag kind of argument that I see a lot of men push around. Like if they are only are only going to go to that biological argument of like, well men are biologically stronger. I'm like what do you mean like men are so diverse, women are so diverse, there's always people who are completely outside of those stereotypes, out of those genetic markers.
Chase: Yeah, it almost feels like it gets so nuanced that it comes back around to not matter, you know in a way where it's like, oh maybe like hip because I think like hip size and like hip shape or a big argument for a lot of things like just like whatever you're born with in those genetics like can play a role in being like more prone to building muscle, being faster, whatever but like it doesn't mean that those people cannot then build to like equal out, you know what I mean?
Courn: It's a weird argument. I think my hot take is that I think why men are statistically better in sports is that I think sports have been designed to showcase the talents of men. Because if we talk about the skills of like genders, respectfully, like there is a lot of skills that on average women would be better on, but those aren't the ones that are broadcast and are created into sports. Like, I don't know, I just think it's very specific that we're always talking about, like how fast can you go? How hard can you throw something? And those are just like 2 very small things about all sports skills, about all of like activity and things. So I think a lot of just looking at the wrong things too, because it's really all about body type. Like I'm just saying we look at sports, people are doing really well in their field, they all have very similar body types. And usually these type of sports require people to be very large but isn't always the case like let's look at gymnastics and shit. I feel like women take the fucking cake on gymnastics that's usually because like having a smaller. shorter build that is more like muscular and bulky like does better so I just feel like it depends what these sports are, but I feel like they have very much, I don't just always glorified like very strong bodies and that's a very specific thing.
Chase: That's a great point, because you then look at the socialized piece of like men versus women. Not even just like male/female, right? Cuz like you're I sound like you're talking more like on that side of things and like the bodies. But like men are socialized to be athletes. Like it's an expected thing or it is also like praised for them to become an athlete. Like that is a whole thing versus women are obviously taught not to chase those things, to be the ones to stay home, to take care of the family, to like sacrifice everything, to not be the aggressive one, to not be the the powerhouse, and it's such an impressive thing when you see a woman weightlifting right? Like that's becoming less and less but the socialized piece that men are just gonna obviously be pushed into those things further like you look at a little baby like, oh little boy are you excited to play basketball or like what is he gonna play sports, you know? It's like the first thing, it's like and then when the kid wants to play chess or like be in robotics, there everyone's like why does anyone play sports like, it's is he just being girly, you know? That kind of bullshit versus little girls again like, oh you can't wait to be an artist and it's like all these little like roles within how we socialize kids, so-
Courn: Oh, for sure!
Chase: That's like a whole nother factor.
Courn: I just like there's so much less women like being encouraged and just in general being brought into the sports career. So it's just a way smaller pool to pick from as well and that definitely has an impact.
Chase: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like I mean even just Alex Morgan's retirement from soccer Like she was explaining her kid Charlie, who I think she's like 3 or 4 is like excited and wants to grow up to be a soccer player like her mom. And obviously you know she's been around sports and do those things but like Alex was Alex Morgan was saying like, I didn't grow up with the dream and thought to be a big athlete. Like that wasn't an option for women. Like that wasn't something like, I can't wait to do this, you know? It's like, no, you're just gonna play in college and then go get a job doing whatever. So hopefully sports continue to change and be more inclusive, even of like trans and non-binary athletes. Because I mean the question is like where where do they compete then? I think that's the one, you're like what what question is like well, where do they compete, that's the ending question.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Wherever the hell they want.
Courn: Exactly.
Chase: I don't know man.
Courn: It wouldn't be that radical.
Chase: No, no.
Courn: I mean, a lot of, I mean, I feel like, for example, if like roller derby has been really on that and like it's been a very like gender inclusive sport for a long time. Yeah. And I feel like there's been yet to have lots of problems. So.
Chase: They're doing just fine.
Courn: Everything's very hypothetical and like I feel like I'm not qualified to talk about I feel like I don't know, the validity of trans athletes but like they deserve to be there, they deserve to compete in their general classes. Everyone including non-trans people has to pass these weird arbitrary levels of hormones that actually disqualify cis people all the time.
Chase: Oh yeah, talking about cis athletes, especially men, I don't really, it doesn't happen as much for women, but taking all kinds of hormones and growth and all these things, especially the bodybuilding level, like come on. Come on.
Courn: It's just people have no business talking about that stuff, about this fearful and it's just like always been rooted in transphobia, it's always been rooted in a fear of, honestly men, it's not about women, it's never been about women, it's been about perceived threat of men.
Chase: I was just gonna say!
Courn: And that's what it comes down to and like you're never gonna have I don't know a nuanced conversation with someone when they just don't believe that trans women are women and-
Chase: That's right.
Courn: That's really, like you are never going to agree anywhere and that's-
Chase: Like what, you're threatened by this because this person's better than you, guess what, you be better by just being better.
Courn: Just like perceived idea of fairness. I don't know. I feel like it's just been debunked by so many trans athletes I follow and stuff. That are just like.
Chase: Huh, it's funny how suddenly fairness comes into the conversation when it affects you.
Courn: Yep. There's so many biological factors we don't talk about even within cis people that have privileges, have benefits, that’s kind of how these sports work.
Chase: Mm-hmm!
Courn: You get lucky.
Chase: I mean look at like kind of like locker room discussions right? We're like depending on where someone's transitioned, you know, doesn't matter but I mean like then people start getting threatened of people's gender and what their sign of birth and where locker rooms are all bad like locker rooms are cis.
Courn: Yeah. That's such an insignificant part of it too.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: What do you mean?
Chase: And they're like you can't, you can't have someone in here with that genitalia.
Courn: Like get out. All the gay people like what? That was also argument though against gay people too. And it's just like, y'all.
Chase: It's just absolutely absurd. You should just be able to compete and like be, but it's not the world we live in. So hopefully more discussions like this can get more awareness and people to like talk about it more and build momentum, like a little snowball.
Courn: Yeah. Well, it's like when we don't have equal rights with women, it feels like we just still have such a long way to go with like trans and non-binary people. Like it's such an additional step and I wish it didn't have to be, but it's like, I just think about the sheer amount of people who watch the NBA in proportion to the WNBA and it's really annoying to me and then I feel like when, I, I don't know, ask people about it like I feel like I've hounded my partner about this, because of you quite literally. I've just been like why don't you watch it? He's just like oh, he's there I just never have before and like I don't know, and then he's just like and then I'm like he's like well, they're also like it's like different channels, like it's not as easy to watch.
Chase: That is correct!
Courn: And I'm like that is definitely on the network, he's like but it all comes down And this isn't something our partners explicitly said but I think something I've heard people be like, it's just like, oh, well, I think women need to show up for women's sports. And it's just like not really a fair assumption because like, I don't know, the WNBA is just given so much less resources. Like how can you expect them to be to the level of sensationalist and like quantity and history of the NBA when they're not given as much resources? Like saying that it's on the fans to lift it up to NBA levels, actually like wild.
Chase: Because the revenue that the fans actually bring in is almost nothing compared to sponsorships and literal private investors.
Courn: But they're like oh, but you're not showing the numbers to get that which-
Chase: Viewership, which gets the sponsors, which is bullshit!
Courn: So it's like a never-ending cycle, where it's like we don't have the resources to do that-
Chase: Yeah, it’s just putting. It's just victim blaming, right? It's like the same thing of like brown people are set or it's expected that brown people do the work for the white people and show them where the resources are and teach them where these things teach them how to be it's just like no, you you do the damn work already. I mean the argument of like why you don't watch it is interesting. I mean you mentioned like you didn't even know it existed. I don't think I knew really as a kid growing up that it was an option. I knew it was there, but I was just like oh whatever and like you know I grew up a lot of misogyny, so I was like oh, girls are just like weaker but whatever. So it wasn't until adulthood when I was like, oh, this is so much better. And it is really hard to watch, which is really frustrating. Like the more we can talk about it, and the more people who watch it and go out of their way to find those hard channels or go watch it on a YouTube stream from someone's freaking stream, like eventually it will get there. Even just like the other night the Thorns were playing and it said like, where to watch, like CBS Sports Network and you're like okay great so I have like a TV antenna for like a digital antenna for my freaking TV because that's that's like an easy way to access it you have like the nwc plus network which is like their streaming version you've got like all these you got like sick, Amazon Prime take some of the videos, Paramount Plus take some of those, like you got all these things so like I was trying to go through I couldn't find it anywhere and I was like CBS should just have it on cable it wasn't showing up turns out I had to go to YouTube again watch someone who was like streaming it from their side on their page like, it was like a live YouTube all for this one game all for this one game I only caught half of it.
Courn: I will say I feel like the whole streaming aspect of sports in general has gotten really weird to me. The fact that we have to like buy like 4 different packages.
Chase: ESPN.
Courn: Yeah. That already feels problematic to me.
Chase: I fucking hate ESPN.
Courn: Because I feel my partner's bought a different type of subscription every year.
Chase: That's the thing.
Courn: It's always changing.
Chase: Yeah. WNBA, I got the like league pass which is only $40 by the way people.
Courn: That’s a good price!
Chase: Put your yeah, put your freaking money where your mouth is. You want to support women? Yeah, no and like it covers like a ton of games, not all of them because some of them are gonna be like nationally broadcast. Which is fine, but like yeah, you got to watch there and if they're not there now I gotta go watch the playoffs on ESPN, which I'm really mad about cuz I don't want to go to a bar and I'm not paying for ESPN, so it's irritating.
Courn: I just feel like especially as people who are really into sports and I feel like I would consider my partner like really into basketball, like he does sports betting on it he's very into it like his life revolves around basketball, he played basketball sure life to me I think that's when it becomes a point to call someone in and be like hey like why don't you watch women’s basketball?
Chase: I like that.
Courn: If you really like basketball like I think-
Chase: There should be no difference.
Courn: Yeah, like if I understand like maybe if you don't watch sports like I don't watch.
Chase: Also, there's that's fair, there's also very little sports betting on women's sports. It's not like a thing, it's not a thing like if you try to like because one of my clients is like oh, can you like bet on soccer games and I was like no! You literally just can't. It's not like, there's no sports books for it. And granted that's-
Courn: We need to start that up and then maybe ESPN will put money into it. Cause that seems to be where the money's going right now. It's in sports betting, getting legalized and all that shit.
Chase: Dude. It is so, it's so profitable. It's insane. My client drops, like I got a client drops couple hundred bucks on like football games here and there, he's like it likes to do that. Like that's just what he likes to do.
Courn: That shit just wildly scares me. My dad's has probably spent upwards to a million dollars on sports betting throughout my life and wasted all of our money growing up on sports betting So it's always a really big red flag to me. My partner does sports betting, but we have very strict limits. He started with $20 in the app and now he's won over like 3 grand.
Chase: Sure. So let's make it happen for women then. I do want to go back to some of like the arguments as to why not to watch it. Cause, you mentioned like, what was it like? Like they don't make as much or like they don't perform as much or something like the WNBA, I think Kelsey Plum, was on an interview and was like if you look at the numbers like W is ahead of where men's is for where they're at in the league. Cause the men's league has obviously been around longer. So like you can't compare them like exactly where they are currently, but like at the W 10 year mark versus like the men's 10 year mark, like women are way ahead. Like they are literally outperforming all of that. And so like, how can you even argue that? Like they don't perform as well. They don't make as much money. They don't bring in as much money, like-
Courn: To something that has so much history, like it's false and that's what I feel like I've heard a lot too people do you like analyzations of it yeah be like oh actually per viewership the WNBA is actually doing much better, and have way higher engagement.
Chase: Most women's sports do!
Courn: Yeah cuz it's just like oh of course they don't have the resources and viewership of the men's ones when they're being broadcast on these big platforms that have hundreds of years of history and all this money into it. It's just like, it's not a fair comparison. It's just an excuse. It's just an excuse to say, fuck women, I don't want to put money into their sports. Even though they know, probably long-term it would be super profitable. They don't even care. Like misogyny is that strong. They don't even want to make money.
Chase: Which is insane because there's a lot of talks in the NWSL, which is the soccer league, about how much like the league is freaking growing like crazy which is good but like-
Courn: I heard we we’re getting a whatever WNBA team so something’s going on!
Chase: Yeah! Here in Portland here in Portland we're getting some basketball! But like if you're a business person you would be stupid not to invest in women's sport. Like you would literally be an idiot because some of these teams are being valued when they first get purchased or created like sub 5 million dollars or even like a couple billion. Like here we are 5,6,7 years later we're talking a hundred billions. Like y'all want to do the math on that growth that's like 10x was that even more 10 than 10x of growth like you'd be absolutely stupid not to not invest so I don't know, the other reasons why people don't watch women's sports, but you're missing out!
Courn: I just think it’s the assumption that they're bad. I think that's what my brother really thought that he always thought if he watched women's basketball-
Chase: Like women aren't as good.
Courn: They're just going to be slow and like do stupid moves.
Chase: And then just shoot like, ehh, with their foot kicked out.
Courn: And I'm like, I literally watched a WNBA game.
Chase: So good!
Courn: Like a highlight.
Courn: And I was like, oh, shit!
Chase: I love when they get into fights. Apparently the W, the women fight way more than the men, which is so awesome.
Courn: That's what I've heard as well. Which I'm like, oh hell yeah from an entertainment aspect.
Chase: Oh, yeah, cuz the women will square up. They'll talk shit and they'll throw some elbows and big. Let's, let's go. If you’re gonna pick a fight, let’s go!
Courn: Also from a sexual objectification point, why don't men want to watch women's sports, respectfully as someone who's fruity, I’m like-
Chase: Because men hate women, they don't they don't like women.
Courn: Because respectfully, the women are so hot!
Chase: So hot!
Courn: So I'm like what and I'm just like, y'all are missing out respectfully, I don't know the fact we only want to watch guys run around and tackle each other a little gay if I must say!
Chase: And the commentators are-
Courn: A little homoerotic.
Chase: It's pretty, it's very!
Courn: No one can tell me that football and wrestling, especially wrestling, I know it's-
Chase: I would argue football is even more though.
Courn: Yeah they're like, I don't know, if you see someone's wrestling holds. Kind of naked.
Chase: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Courn: That's so homoerotic. I'm not saying you're gay.
Chase: It's an old sport. It's an old sport too. And I feel like back in whatever ancient times it was like way more.
Courn: Yeah. I think it's the double standards for me that they're just like, oh that's so lame.
Chase: You bring up a good point of like why if men sexualize women so hard and like want to see them do all these things, why don't you watch them play sports? It's because they look not manly, but they're not in bikinis. Right? Like soccer uniforms.
Courn: They're not dressed for the male gaze!
Chase: Exactly.
Courn: Which respectfully, I don't know. There's a lot of, I feel like, hot players who like, I don't know, are like femme presenting and like I feel like would attract a lot of men.
Chase: That's the beauty of it is like the like spectrum of like women expressing themselves in sports so much bigger than like men. Cuz who was that male athlete? I think he's a track athlete. Might be football who like started painting his nails, did you hear about that?
Courn: Oh yeah, I think that's a football guy.
Chase: Yeah, biggest freaking deal in the NFL but he's like really good. He's really a college player I think is what it is because they're like what's he gonna do now? Anyways, are you kidding me? That's a bit like-
Courn: Why do we have such a lack of news that that's news to me!
Chase: Like or also like how boring like Like dress better. I don't know, look better do your hair, take a shower.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Put some jewelry on.
Courn: Sports are just so weird for me. I just don't think I've really ever understood sports. I think the thing that confused me about sports is like the team aspect of like people being really raw, raw about like their team and their state. When like the people on the team aren't from that state most of the time. Especially like at a professional level. Like they're just drafted. You don't know who these people are and they just show up and play and leave and don't live there. And you're like, this is my team! And I'm like, these people don't even grow up here.
Chase: True.
Courn: Like you don't own them.
Chase: True. The team owns them.
Courn: I just, I think it's like the mass hysteria and like fan base for stuff. That's like Seattle Seahawks, ride or die! And I just genuinely don't understand like this is a inanimate group. It's fictional. These people aren't even from here. They don't know you and you would literally put your life on the line for these people, you would bet your house for them-
Chase: You're betting your money, like your hard-earned money and then your day and week is ruined based on the outcome of their performance that to me is weird.
Courn: I think it's a team aspect I get like really liking a player like being like, oh yeah I'm like it's cool when there's a team near you, you can visit them. But like some of the diehard fans actually scare me. Like I'm like, you do realize like this is for entertainment.
Chase: That's mostly men's sports though.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Like I don't feel like women's is like, there's like a lot of loyalty and like camaraderie around women's sports, but like, I'm not leaving like Thorns game worried that someone's going to fight me, you know, like, uh-uh, no. And like, there's nobody's throwing beers. No one's like punching stuff. No one's being like Andy Dwyer, just like punching the wall.
Courn: Maybe I just don't understand like international football and stuff. Oh my god, they go so hard. People getting fistfights after games.
Chase: European soccer though. I can't speak. They go hard.
Courn: At least they're from that country. So I'm getting that more. I'm feeling that. But something about the teams in the states always weird to me out because I'm like people aren’t even from there.
Chase: Well and then there's like an expected loyalty from the fan base for the players to be loyal to a team for a long time, right? It's like it's like, you got chosen to be here, you better perform and do everything for us because we're going to support you and like that entitlement doesn't transfer and like it feels like real toxic.
Courn: No it feels like an idolization aspect, and I know I'm not the first person to say this, but something has always rubbed me the wrong way, particularly about sports, because idolization, I feel like a predominantly Black men by a lot of white fans lifting up on these pedestal. Essentially, you perform for me, You entertain me. And if you don't do those things, I'm going to hate you and outcast you. It's just like this really weird balance of, it feels like a modern day way of just like, I don't know, that I feel like Black people are still performing and entertaining for white people. At least, yes, they're getting paid a shit ton of money for it.
Chase: But at what cost? Like, you don't think, like people don't think about the cost and literal sacrifice people make to get to that level.
Courn: Yeah, it's just a weird thing, just the objectification, idolization. But it's not even idolization because like you don't idolize, you only idolize these people when they serve you a purpose and as soon as they don't, they're just trash. Something about too, about all the team owners just being white guys on these teams of just like Black players. It's just like such a weird power balance. And I'm like, this feels very weird to me and they make so much money off these players that sure are making tons of money. And football they're also like I don't know ruining their retirement because they're probably going to get dementia and die of a brain problem.
Chase: Concussions!
Courn: Yeah, yeah!
Chase: no you bring a good point. There's a piece on Caitlin Clark around that right now I need to come back to, but I mean I'm glad you brought up cuz I was gonna take us here and how sports is really like has a lot of like enslavement vibes yeah cuz when you look at like college combine to get into the pros, do you know what that is?
Courn: No.
Chase: Okay so and I was gonna do explanatory comma for those who don't know. So in college in the lens of like football, you have college football, and then you like get drafted into like an NFL team, right? Like, like college to pros but in between that in between the draft in order to like rank your status in the draft you go to the Columbine. Combine? I missed combine.
Courn: Columbine? That’s a whole nother topic.
Chase: It's a combine sorry. It's a combine. Yeah I know. Whoops wrong one. They sound similar. The combine and it's like almost like in the Hunger Games where they kind of perform and then like get picked and ranked.
Courn: What?!
Chase: I'm not even kidding you. So they go through and there's like the 40-yard dash, there's like a couple different skills based on what position you want to play. Yes! And you literally perform and they rank and they like you're ranked and compared with everyone. So like you know especially people who want to like wide receiver, want to be in like running positions, it's like how fast can you run a 40-yard dash, it's like we're talking like sub ten seconds, right? Like they're and so like oh they ran like a you know an 8.2 at the 40-yard dash and like they get ranked so like tell me and then from there they get ranked and they get drafted and then it's like oh we picked you for the team. we expect you to do this and all that like tell me that's not like enslavement, like really tough, that's bad vibes, that's bad vibes!
Courn: And I know, I feel like I don't know, I know we're not the people to say that's definitely that!
Chase: Correct, correct, but it's giving, it’s giving!
Courn: Yeah and I feel like I've definitely heard this sentiment before yeah, like especially about football in particular.
Chase: And like you said especially Black athletes who like I mean historically right are like one, it's almost like society expects it to a degree, right? Like you'd like that's just what they go and do and like that's a lot of way that's a way that a lot of kids in lower income areas who are going to be predominantly kids of color get their college paid for is through sports and you know they go play and then make the money to pay off those loans or they don't you know have any loans and so it's not the same for white kids.
Courn: No it just feels like a very weird side effect of just like I don't know.
Chase: It’s just really dysfunctional and yeah.
Courn: Prevailing systemic oppression that just makes the race and power balances just so evident, like you can't act like they're not there. I’m like, what do you mean?
Chase: But it's like nobody like I would have never thought to look at it in that way I would have never thought to been like, oh, yeah, like it's just a just it's just is and now I'm like, oh, it's not it's so much more! Who were you gonna ask about?
Courn: That person, Britney something, the one who literally-
Chase: Griner?
Courn: Yeah who was literally like abducted and being held captive, not abducted, held captive, and then now they're playing again and I was like, do we get an explanation, is there a statement, that was wild to me!
Chase: She's queer, let's go! Yeah, we love it .I didn't know much about her at first and then all of a sudden when the news broke up like Britney Greiner coming home I was like oh cool, who's that and then I was like oh my god.
Courn: I was just trying to find more information on that I feel like there was a lot of mixed stuff that I didn't quite understand what happened.
Chase: I don't know the full story either. I just know that she basically was what coming home from one of the Olympics or something, some like overseas game. She was caught like with weed in her possession. And I think, I don't know if she even tested positive, to be honest, I think she had weed in her possession. And so in Russia, obviously it's like big no-no. So she literally just got detained in Russian prison for like 2 years or something ridiculous. Yeah, literally, she was like an Olympic athlete coming back from the Olympics or something. It's something like that. Like she was like on her-
Courn: Cause that was a bit ago!
Chase: Yeah, she was like coming back. She was supposed to like come back from that and like literally just got stopped in Russia never came home for like 2 years so, huge huge thing!
Courn: Who’s making the documentary on this?
Chase: There's probably got to be someone out there doing it!
Courn: Yeah, I feel like some shit had to have happened there!
Chase: Yeah. There was a lot of interviews when it first happened because I think this might be her first full season back, honestly, I'm not totally sure because I'm still pretty new into this, maybe last year was her first year back but like I mean she's an incredible star again Olympic and so she literally served her time and then whatever made her whatever they made the trade right?
Courn: Served unjust tim!
Chase: Yes, yeah, yeah and so it was like it was like after like she wasn't even testing positive I think during like whatever it was it was like literally afterwards. So like it didn't infect impact her performance at all. But yeah, now she's just back and her and her wife just have like a baby. And yeah, it's insane.
Courn: Jesus christ! It just sounds super dramatic and I feel like there-
Chase: like she talked about a little bit in a interview-
Courn: Wasn’t a lot of accountability, I feel like on like lack of U.S. intervention and actually doing something to help. I feel like if I was detained in another country, that’s fucking terrifying!
Chase: Oh yeah, you get a white man detained in any other country, the press would not let up. Yeah, I mean it's really sad she like yeah, she talked about a lot of the stuff, I mean she the biggest a big like story was that she because she was there and didn't have like the proper supplies like take care of her hair she was known for I guess her dreadlocks and so eventually she just like cut them off and so like obviously it's really bad for your hair to just like cut like with scissors, cut it out. And so then she basically came back and it's like growing her hair back out. It's kind of this whole like symbol of like yeah of like survival and you know becoming or what do they call that? Resilience! Yeah.
Courn: I’m gonna have to do a deep dive on this! Because I’ve only heard highlights of this. Because this sounds so fucking traumatic-
Chase: It absolutely is. No one's talking about that shit. I mean, she kind of I feel like came back and was like kind of quiet. It was just like in her feet under her.
Courn: I feel like some shit fucking went down!
Chase: Oh, totally. I mean, she talked. I mean, because she talked about the experience in the prison how like you're just basically a fucking work slave, right? Like they just work you like crazy and so she I mean it's like bad conditions she mentioned how like absolutely cold it was and like any like you know trauma she was having in the cell or what, PTSD and all that shit so it's pretty fucked up. I'm sure there's something coming out, we should look and see. There's a new women's soccer documentary on Netflix-
Courn: Oh I did see that!
Chase: Hope Solo. I need to watch that so we go watch that.
Courn: Another reason yet to support women's sports.
Chase: Absolutely insane. I guess Michael Phelps is the only other athlete who was like known to get caught for weed or what would he get caught for? Doping?
Courn: No, I think it might just been weed. I think it's because I think he's come out and really said that he smokes a lot of weed.
Chase: Yeah, when you're an Olympic athlete you do relax. I’d smoke some weed too. Are you kidding me?
Courn: Yeah, that was wild to me.
Chase: And just the inequity in gender.
Courn: Yep.
Chase: Love it.
Courn: I mean that probably would have been a lot bigger a story had it been a white dude so.
Chase: Oh of course.
Courn: It's like a kind of it was a really big deal at first and it just kind of like faded away.
Chase: Typical.
Courn: And I don't know.
Chase: And now it's nothing. So strange. But we're gonna come back to Caitlin Clark. So you know the buzz around her right? Like she's obviously very good.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Yeah she's white obviously. It's so funny how she endorsed or she liked Taylor Swift's post about endorsing Kamala or something like that, or she commented, or she liked the post, that's literally it and now all of Caitlin Clark's fans are like, who are you you're supporting the woke, like all this stuff and they're like, yeah hating on her now because they're like, oh she's all woke minded blah blah blah because she's like-
Courn: That’s like every celebrity right now. A lot of them are endorsing Kamala-
Chase: But like yeah, because they're not trying to be associated with a freaking psychopath. So anyways, but it's just funny because like all the fans Immediately stopped following her because like and they're now they're just trash-talking her.
Courn: I find that interesting because, I'm just like I don't know.
Chase: But then how you treat like all the other Black athletes as well versus like if they even come remotely close to hurting Caitlin Clark, it's like these aggressive blah blah blah you know and then it's not even the same when it's like, I don't know people of color just like fighting with each other versus like a Black person fighting or getting into something with Caitlin Clark, like a white person. Yeah..
Courn: I mean, it's just a different power balance.
Chase: Yeah. And but it's just like the conversation is so different.
Courn: For sure.
Chase: Which is so stupid.
Courn: I understand the critique wholeheartedly. It's not my place to critique. I don't know. Especially like, like I feel like to critique Black people in positions of power who are celebrities to be like, oh you can't endorse Kamala, you're being bad, you're endorsing someone who supports genocide. That's not my place to say. I would call out some white people, for sure. I think you deserve a little bit of pushback. I don't know. I think it is like kind of a uh…
Chase: Even just my client today was like, oh yeah, did you hear this? Someone hit Caitlin Clark in the face. And I was like, well, did you watch the replay in the video? Because it's very clear that the person went to block the shot and immediately pulled their arm back as they got close to Caitlin. So I don't think it was on purpose. Well, no, I didn't see it. So I don't know what happened. Yeah, that's what I thought.
Courn: I mean people sensationalize that. And that's the thing that's always got me with Caitlin Clark. I think there's been a lot of like double standards for sure on how they promote a white woman in the WNBA.
Chase: So insane!
Courn: And it's just completely different. And I don't even know that much about the WNBA, but I thought it was interesting.
Chase: Predominantly Black woman playing in the W.
Courn: Yes, it was just interesting to me when I found out that person was white, not because I thought a white person couldn't do it, but I just like oh this person's been treated really positively and it was like kind of like a bummer for me to find out that they were white because I was like oh okay.
Chase: Because all these other like Black women have done it for years. I mean the W's 20 some years old, like they've been performing incredibly so RIP!
Courn: White woman has to do it first, so.
Chase: I mean unfortunately, it's what got me into the W, like I never paid attention because I wanted to but like I was watching soccer so much and then the seasons really overlap a lot so it's hard to like keep up with both and then finally this year I was like screw it, I'm just gonna try to keep up with both and guess what it was actually really fun and I had a great time and I wish I'd done it sooner!
Courn: Yeah, I love that!
Chase: RIP. Oh, I do want to talk about like ways that people actually can support and like little things that make a big difference because I feel like we kind of complained a lot, but it's actually really easy to support women's sports like ways and people would think, like 1. the tickets are cheaper, that's unfortunate but like tickets to go watch women's sports in person is almost cheaper than men's for most of time.
Courn: I would say almost every time.
Chase: Yeah I would say so 1, is cheaper so there's no excuse to be like oh it's so expensive. No most GA tickets to a Thorns game are like 15 to 30 dollars, maybe 45 on like a big day. There's that. Obviously the league pass for WNBA is like 40 bucks, which you know could be a lot for some but if you can afford 40 dollars, if you can afford to go to game, you can afford to watch all those games. I mean buying any merch or just like sharing stuff on social media goes a long way, right? Like the more views and like interactions they're gonna get on those pages, like the more people that invest to continue to like grow it from there. You should make the switch to always assume it's women's sports and they'll be like oh, did you mean oh you're talking about men's sports, sorry my bad!
Courn: The other one!
Chase: Oh, what a shame! But I feel like there's easy ways to just do that kind of stuff and you don't have to be like the biggest fan, watch all the games, go to all the games, wear the gear, but like little things here and there can go a long way!
Courn: I definitely could do some of those things even though I don't really like sports but-
Chase: But when it's cuties!
Courn: I'll show up, there's a lot of things, yeah, there's a lot of things I don't like that I will show up for in the sake of like, I don't know, equality and amplification.
Chase: Hell yeah. That's true. That's true. Playing it, cheering people on. I mean, you could go into a bunch of stuff, but I feel like those are like the easiest ways. It's like not that hard compared to I mean, what's do you know what a ESPN subscription is right now? Cause I don't, like a hundred bucks, 80 a month?
Courn: They divided it up into so many plans now. So it's just like, at one point it was literally almost like a hundred bucks a month, pretty much.
Chase: Ongoing.
Courn: Yeah. Like they don't do, they don't, they rarely do the packages anymore. It's still on a monthly basis, whatever. Yeah.
Chase: And see at that rate, like, why don't you just, would it be cheaper to just get cable again and watch ESPN?
Courn: Sometimes, just depends how much you watch like. for example I mean Raymond only watches sports for like whatever.
Chase: The season.
Courn: Yeah, and I think he only does it for basketball. Football, he just watches highlights or whatever. So cable got up to like 160 a month for us.
Chase: Well, at this rate, we're paying for how many subscriptions? We're probably getting close to that, dude. I mean.
Courn: Yeah, but I was also doing cable with all those so we're buying almost like $300 a month on media, so yeah!
Chase: On media!
Courn: So we haven’t had cable for like 5 years and that's been like the best decision but.
Chase: Yeah, yeah wow, you still have cable?
Courn: No, we haven’t! For like 5 years.
Chase: Okay, I was like you still have cable?!
Courn: Okay, that's like every time I think that's normal I will then talk like millennials, they’re like of course I have cable!
Chase: No, there's no, you're talking to fake millennials.
Courn: I'm like, what do you mean? I can't afford cable!
Chase: They still wear low socks
Courn: Raymond still wears low socks. He's like, I hate the high socks. And I'm like-
Chase: Yep. I'm just skibidi toilet. Ohio.
Courn: Yeah. True Gen Z. That's gen alpha.
Chase: No, nobody's paying for cable. I mean, only old people do. I'm seriously.
Courn: My mom just likes the ability. Actually, my mom even got rid of cable, she now she does the Hulu TV.
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: Cause it’s cheaper and it’s the same thing, you can watch stuff live.
Chase: Wow, that's wild. Okay, well on that note, let's go, let's go watch some women play sports and be gay.
Courn: Ra ra!
Chase: Bye!
Courn: Bye!
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So, if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!