Episode 20: No outside clothes, ever!

Courn:     Welcome to Neurotakes, this is Courn.

Chase:     I'm Chase.

Courn:     Let's get into it.

Chase:     Let's get into it.

Chase:     Courn, how often do you clean your floors?

Courn:     Like okay, what's your definition of clean?

Chase:     Like mopping.

Courn:     Like once a month?

Chase:     Yeah, I feel like we don't mop our floors very often, one, we don't wear shoes in the house so like I don't feel like the floors get that dirty.

Courn:     Same.

Chase:     But we got dogs!

Courn:     Dogs!

Chase:     We got the dogs, that goes outside, so this weekend I was like okay, I gotta mop the floors cuz we really haven't done it since like a while now, I don't know when the last time was to be honest.

Courn:     You're too embarrassed to admit!

Chase:     Yeah, honestly I don't remember the last time.

Courn:     That's fine.

Chase:     Our floors are kind of like that woodish pattern so like you can't really tell it's that dirty. So I'm like, okay, we vacuum all the time. Tell me why I'm like going through mopping all these things and I was like, let me test to make sure it's actually getting clean and like drying right, because I couldn't remember exactly if you put like water and product or soap like whatever right, and so sure enough you're like half the house done, and I go back and it's like kind of like got a film on it-

Courn:     No.

Chase:     Oh no, what is this so like get my hands, touch it, and it's like kind of not sticky but that kind of dry something, you know something I was like oh no. So then I get like a wet towel and I kind of wipe it and shirt off the floor. Like my hands just black.

Courn:     What?!

Chase:     I was like, what? I was like, what the fuck? So turns out, I don't know how to clean my floors, which is really, really frustrating.

Courn:     You know, honestly, that's an issue of products and stuff. I find at least, cause like also if you're just using, I don't know, like not the right soap, it could like damage it or not clean it-

Chase:     Right!

Courn:     Fully if you're not using the right mop or brush, you know.

Chase:     Exactly and so I was doing the thing where you like kind of like mop it and then like it's like separate waters, because I didn't know like separate water type of shit you know, you don't want to be mixing, but I don't know if I used the wrong wrong product, like didn't let it dry too much product too much water I don't but I was like appalled that my floors are should probably filthy and I was like god dammit!

Courn:     Seeing your floors, like that's impressive to me, grime gets on there good. I mopped a lot growing up on our tile kitchen and I very quickly learned that like grout's not supposed to be brown, it's supposed to be white.

Chase:     Which white grout is also a nightmare of a product. Terrible decision, it never gets clean, it never stays clean and once it's stained, it's stained forever, you literally cannot bleach it enough.

Courn:     Grout's actually the worst thing in existence, I know that what you're supposed to use it to be waterproof.

Chase:     Yeah. And like tiles and stuff. It's like the most waterproof thing and water resistant with like erosion.

Courn:     Yeah?!

Chase:     That kind of thing. I was like, what's the word for that?

Courn:     Okay! You got me sold. Erosion. Okay. Yeah.

Chase:     *laughs* Erosion proof caulking.

Courn:     Oooh!

Chase:     Yeah. It was really frustrating. So that kind of sent me down like a whole rabbit hole of like I got real dysregulated being like, one, my floors were disgusting and I hate that because I like walking barefoot a lot and like that was just like-

Courn:     Literally everywhere, that's your whole entire dwelling too so if that’s gross, you don't walk around!

Chase:     Especially because we don't really do shoes in the house like ever like there might be like 1 or 2 times in like a 6 month span but like shoes off and so like that was a frustrating and I just I was like we gotta talk about this because I can't be the only one experiencing a lot of the frustrations and dysregulation around cleaning now that I live away from my family.

Courn:     Yeah. Well, especially just the deep cleaning too. I don't know. I feel like no one taught me how to like deep clean or that there was just all this stuff around your house that needs to be clean that like my mom magically did. Like have you cleaned the top of your kitchen cabinets? Do you have space up there? Because it is so freaking gross.

Chase:     I was gonna say our cupboard or like cupboards go all the way up to the ceiling. It's a weird design but I have only once gotten and like actually cleaned off the front of the cupboards cuz again it's kind of like a wood texture, you can't really see the dirt like unless you're on it-

Courn:     Then you wipe it and you're like-

Chase:     Bro, it's bad, it's bad. Well the frustrating part is I feel like maybe I was taught and I just don't remember because I don't do this stuff on the regular. It's not like something you do like weekly or monthly, probably should, but like my mom's a freaking house cleaner.

Courn:     Really?

Chase:     That's the most frustrating part. That's her whole job. She has a little house cleaning business. And so I'm like-

Courn:     If anyone would know, it should be you.

Chase:     That's the thing, it should be me. And so not only was it like me like realizing the floors are dirty but then it was like that shame and like embarrassment that I didn't remember or like oh my mom would be so disappointed like, that whole spiral and I was like, wow what a freaking layer on top of all this. I didn't like it.

Courn:     I feel like I never really learned how to clean growing up. And I think that's probably a privilege just because I mean, my mom was like a stay at home mom and I feel like that's all the stuff she did. Like we kept our areas clean. Like we did our dishes after meals. Like we kept our rooms clean and stuff, but I don't think I ever actually like wiped down a bathroom.

Chase:     Oh wow.

Courn:     And I still, okay, my first like 2 apartments, I don't think I really ever cleaned the bathroom. And when you're living by yourself, it's not that big of a deal if you're not a messy person. And like, I don't know, I stay pretty clean, whatever, in the bathroom. If there's a mess, I wipe it up immediately. But yeah, I didn't clean my first bathroom of my entire apartment for like 2 years.

Chase:     Oh wow!

Courn:     Yeah, I'm wondering why I didn't get my deposit back. Very obviously. I never vacuumed the carpets either because they were like a tan color.

Chase:     *gasps * Yeah!

Courn:     We didn't have a dog then so you really couldn't tell. Yeah, then you get hardwood floors and you really have to vacuum like every other day and it always looks gross. So.

Chase:     But the fun part of that is like your floors are kind of always gross and dirty so whether you have hardwood floors or hard floors and you can see it, or you have carpet and you can't see it, it's still there. Like, gross.

Courn:     Yeah. I don't know what's more dysregulating, it being gross all the time, or me trying to have to clean it and just not being able to get to the standards I want. I think that's something that frustrates me. Like we have an older house, so there's like a lot of scratches and dings on our floors and stuff. So like you try to clean it up and it still like looks, I don't know, maybe not as clean.

Chase:     Yeah. Oh, I mean, especially with dogs. I feel like the dogs it's like. If like you said, if I was like a stay at home person and could clean and vacuum every other day, it'd be fine. But like, I don't have that luxury. So once a week vacuuming with a long hair dog, it's it's it's wild. You didn't clean much as a kid though?

Courn:     Not really?

Chase:     No one taught you at like the basics of like, did they teach you laundry, how to do laundry?

Courn:     I just started doing my own laundry in high school just because I wanted it done, but that didn't feel like rocket science to me. Put it in the washer, you know, move it. Put it in the dryer!

Chase:     Some washers are very finicky and stuff. Like the washer we have here is like a little sensitive. Like if it's too full, it doesn't rinse out everything. Like it's a whole time.

Courn:     Yeah. I don't know if I'm just also blocking out those years because I do remember having mopping as a task and I remember doing that but I don't ever remember wiping down a bathroom and I'm like we all had like, there's an upstairs bathroom in a downstairs bathroom and I had my own bathroom for most of high school and I never wiped it down. And that’s gross!

Chase:     Wow, that's so wild!

Courn:     But I'm like my room was always clean, I don't know.

Chase:     Oh!

Courn:    Like I always kept things tidy and that's just how I've always been. I don't know. Maybe that's the autism in me. But I just cannot handle being in like untidy spaces. So I feel like everything was like a surface clean but not necessarily like deep clean and I think that's how my mom's cleaning style is too. I don't remember ever seeing her like scrub things really hard, like you know, just don't look on the underside of the toilet bowl like, you know. But like everything looked put together and that mattered more for me. Like a room could be completely clean but if there was just like shit piled up everywhere I would be like-

Chase:     Cluttered.

Courn:    Yeah, that's very dysregulating to me.

Chase:     I feel that.

Courn:    But also I make so much clutter, so it's just like a constant battle of just like sorting my own clutter.

Chase:     True, it is really hard. I'm like, I'm sure this is like a neurodivergent thing, that it's really hard to not clutter things as you go through, like putting stuff away as you go for me is really hard. I don’t know about you. I'm better about it. Like in the kitchen, I'm really solid, but like in the bedroom, just like putting clothes like on the bed. Oh, they're not like dirty, they're not clean. But like, I can kind of re-wear them or just like putting shoes not quite away, just kind of like in front of where it goes.

Courn:     It's like really hard to categorize stuff. I don't know like where it's supposed to go. And then I find myself, I get in these weird task trains where like, it's probably like a task I could have done in like 5 minutes, but I'm just like, oh, I need to put the laundry away. Oh, but then actually, oh I see my slippers by the door. I need to put that in the closet. And then I go in the closet and I'm like, oh, there's some dust on my shelves. I should wipe that down. And then like 3 hours later, I'm reorganizing a photo album.

Chase:     And Raymond's like, your spouse is like, where's the laundry?

Courn:     Yeah, I'm like, oh, okay, he's the same fucking way. We're both like that. So it's really hard to like, I don't isolate on specific tasks.

Chase:     That's nice that y'all are the like similar way in that because my wife and I are a little opposites with clutter and cleaning. Like I usually clean as I go for some stuff or majority of stuff, but they're definitely like a explode everywhere and then do all the cleaning, which is really wild because they don't like long bouts of cleaning but, and then it never gets cleaned or like tidied and put away and then it builds and then I'm like, oh now we're really screwed.

Courn:     Yeah. Which I feel like that's how I used to be. Because I feel like I had these, I was always like making the house like really dirty and stuff and then I'd have like a big breakdown about it and then be like, okay and then clean for like 7 hours straight and then just not be able to move for the rest of the weekend. Which was not great.

Chase:     That’s what I used to do. Yeah, I would like, every couple days just deep clean and do a bunch of cleaning and be like, oh yeah, I'm a clean person. This is fine. This is normal. But like, it's just because I had no systems and know how to do it.

Courn:     And I know that's like not doable for everyone. People have different levels of severity, different personality, and like I don't know traits around that stuff. But yeah, I make a very like clear effort. I have all these like practices in place so I'm actively cleaning. Like I do a quick cleanup 5 minutes when I wake up, 5 minutes when I go to bed. I always have to do everything in a moment because if I don't it won't get done.

Chase:     Truly. What about putting it on a list?

Courn:     You know, I usually don't put like stuff that that's trivial on a list, but I think it could be helpful.

Chase:     That trivial? Ouch.

Courn:     Or I guess not trivial is the right word.

Chase:     *laughs*

Courn:     I'm not trying to be mean. I mean like something that's like that's-

Chase:     Quick?

Courn:     Yeah or small.

Chase:     I'm not trying to trivialize but I'm gonna make it seem small.

Courn:     No, I don't mean it's small in that it's like it feels like it's micromanaging my life that it gets too overwhelming that like, I'll put more effort into making the list than actually just like doing the task.

Chase:     It sounds like the duration of the task also influences whether it goes on the list or not because you said like a 5 minute cleanup just like boop boop tidy versus maybe something that's at least a deep clean or vacuum it might be like 20 to 60 minutes.

Courn:     Yeah, like I set reminders for when I need to clean the bathrooms, like deep clean the bathrooms, I do it once a month, whatever, I have reminders for dusting I do around once a month but if it's something like oh, I need to put a pillow away. I'm not gonna put that on a list maybe that's helpful for someone but, that's like too small of a task for me.

Chase:     It would need to be more like generalized, like tidy room or something.

Courn:     Yeah, because then I could just go on a whole thing where I'm gonna spend hours making tasks that are like all very small things, which I'm like could be helpful for someone but I'm like, I get more excited about organizing it and then I won't actually do it.

Chase:     For sure, for sure. What about like how you were brought up, how much do you feel like that influences your standard of cleaning, both like in your childhood and how it is now? I feel like there's a lot of influence.

Courn:     Yeah, I mean I know we both grew up in like mixed Asian households. So yeah, that is a big influence. Even though my mom is like the white one and was doing mostly domestic stuff, like my dad definitely had like a lot of standards. Like my dad cannot handle stuff being gross. Like he very much would tell my mom just like, you need to clean this up. Not cool thing to do to your partner. But yeah, I mean, we had all the stereotypical things of like no shoes in the house, absolutely ever. Like no outside clothes, like on, you know, bedding and stuff. That is like my biggest rule as an adult.

Chase:     Why is that? Outside clothes? Does, are we, is that, that's an Asian thing, right?

Courn:     I think so. Cause every Asian person I've talked to is just like, yeah, no outside clothes. And then you talk to white people and they're like, what do you mean? And they, you know, get off the subway and then immediately sit on their bed.

Chase:     Ugh! No!

Courn:     Ugh! That's how you get bed bugs. I'm not trying to stigmatize the subway.

Chase:     Bed bugs! That’s how you get pink eye.

Courn:     Yeah. Fun fact, I got bed bugs from the bus.

Chase:     Bro.

Courn:     So. Don't be like me, change your bottoms, change your shirt if you go anywhere public. I thought that was like common sense, but.

Chase:     No, as soon as I get home from work and granted I work in like a sweaty environment, but even so like as soon as I come home, I was like take the outer layers off, and either like half naked, or just like put some new put some like PJs on cuz no outside clothes on th,e not on the sofa, my face goes there!

Courn:     Yeah, also just like I don't know I feel like my outside clothes are slightly more uncomfortable too. So as soon as I get home, I'm just like, I'm stripping this bad boy off. Bra gets thrown off. Like I instantly put on pajama pants.

Chase:     You like do a little shimmy.

Courn:     Yeah. But literally having people over and seeing them sit there like blue jeans on my couch. I'm like oh it's like linen and I'm like ugh!

Chase:     Okay here's a tangent, there is a person at my work who works out in like Levi's, belt, like tucked in button-up shirt, which you know to each their own that's chill I just feel like that would be so dysregulating and uncomfortable because it's like very stiff clothing and cowboy boots, functional yes, for a job?

Courn:     It’s weird casue I've known like 5 people who've done this and 1 of these people's is my mom's boyfriend who literally wore a long sleeve button up and pants like an entire trip in Florida in like 90 degree weather.

Chase:     Looking like letter Kenny over here. Literally.

Courn:     Yeah. I don't know if it's like a comfort thing or like you just don't have those clothes. I don't know. I'm also not going to, you know, stigmatize if that's what you want to work out in. It's not hurting me. You're wearing clothes.

Chase:     That's fine. I know it's no harm, but I'm always shocked because I was like, that is so far removed from what I'm adjusted to.

Courn:     I would be busting out of those buttons. Those pants would be halfway up my ass, crotched up. That would not be a good time.

Chase:     That's totally fair. Do you, oh one thing I really get on my spouse about is putting the suitcase on the bed.

Courn:     Oh, it's so gross!

Chase:     So, it happened once and I was like what are you doing? It's like no no no, there's probably poop on that suitcase, what if there's poop on our bed now? I was like, don't put that poopy suitcase on our bed. I was like put a towel down please.

Courn:     *laughs* That is so fair.

Chase:     Put the suitcase on the ground or if you gotta put it on a chair, maybe depends on the chair, still put a towel down! Why, like do you do the same thing where like you got little isms of like, can't put outside things on your stuff? Yeah.

Courn:     All the time I just feel like is once I once you think about it too deeply you can never go back.

Chase:     No!

Courn:     I don't know, I had a big like phase of being I don't know if germaphobe is the politically correct way. I think it's like misophonia or mysophobia? Is like the-

Chase:     Oh, like a germaphobe, but not.

Courn:     Yeah, but I'm also, I don't know, if that's just like a trivializing someone who's actually suffering from that-

Chase:     Correct, like an actual, yeah.

Courn:     So that's like saying, oh I'm so OCD, no! But I feel like I had this big phase in high school where I was like, washing my hands like-

Chase:     Hypochondriac?

Courn:     No, that's like scared of having an illness.

Chase:     Oh, that's fair.

Courn:     It's something that starts with an M, but yeah, I had this whole phase, which just does sound borderline obsessive. I was washing my hand like 10 times in a row. Which that is sounding a little...that's like actually sounding like OCD, because all these repetitive behaviors and rituals I had and I just was like, oh if I don't wash my shoes every day, you know, bad things are gonna happen. Yeah.

Chase:     Interesting. Well, we just found that out together.

Courn:     Yeah. And I still have that to some degree but I've definitely laxed up a lot mainly just because I lived with someone who was so dirty all the time, that either I was gonna have a meltdown or adjust and I had many meltdowns.

Chase:     Because it's just constant dysregulation at that point. And it's like building up. There's no like off gassing or there's no like resolving of that.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     Yeah. You lived with it. Yeah.

Courn:     Which is hard because I mean, I just, I grew up with like a very clean home and I know it's definitely a privilege, but it definitely, I didn't realize how big of a deal it was, I think, until I got older, how important that was to me, like being in a clean space, like just tidy.

Chase:     Yeah. If you had to pick tidy or clean, it sounds like you would pick tidy.

Courn:     I think so, but I think to a point, because, okay, I feel like other people have different definitions of like clean. I don't know, if I can visibly like see dirt on shit, like I might pick you know the clean over tidy, but I mean I've been to people's places like that and I know there's always circumstances why people can't have things clean okay, it's definitely a privilege to have that time but-

Chase:     You bring up a good point about like standard and definition of it though and like that is probably something I've had to come to terms and like have more acceptance around as I unmask and become an adult and really try to be authentic to like what is safe and realistic for me like. I can't have like the clean standard that you see on social media, right, like when there's like clean videos, which is satisfying to watch, but I caught myself getting like really anxious the more I saw those videos online of like how people clean and what they do and how often and how perfect it is. Because for me, it's not attainable like without overdoing myself, working full-time, doing all the things, like that was really frustrating. What about you?

Courn:     I mean I would agree and I would think too I feel like I saw that with my mom. I mean, my mom was a stay at home mom and arguably had a lot of time, but she had so much like domestic duties to do. I would see her stressing like, if something like, oh, my grandparents were coming or like they were having friends over for like a Super Bowl party. It was like my mom was like cleaning for days and it was so obsessive and I feel like I just saw this part of her just like really struggling and I feel like I do the same fucking thing. So I don't learn, I'm still very much like that oh, if someone's coming over, you know, maybe they're gonna look under my bed. Like what I what I have to clean my room mom because they're not gonna come in my room but also me as an adult, cleaning my bedroom every time someone comes over cause-

Chase:     Meanwhile there's me, I'm texting you like last night bro don't judge my house, it's so messy!

Courn:     Literally, it's not even that messy. Honestly, I feel like that's the difference your house is always clean but it's not always tidy, but that's fine to me it's not my house, I don't have to live here like, you know.

Chase:     Yeah, tidy is one thing because like you said, it doesn't it's not stinky hopefully and like you're not stepping in like piles of trash and like there's not like wrappers. Sometimes, you get some dishes out, but man I wish I could have that that cleanliness standard. But it's like, I don't know, is it realistic? Like is that even enjoyable? Like is life enjoyable when you get to that point of like needing to clean that much? I can't speak for that.

Courn:     No I mean that literally can be a disability or disorder when you're that obsessive about it. But, I think it just what bothers me so much is I feel like just like as an AFAB person, like it's just kind of projected on you that you have to figure it out. Like, I don't know. I feel like I've met so many men, like especially in college that were like, I don't know how to fucking do laundry. I don't know how to clean a bathroom. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I didn't know how to do those things either, but guess what? I had to figure it out because I'm an adult, you know? And like, they can just get by for years. Like my dad didn't know how to use like half the stuff in the kitchen. Like if my mom would leave, he'd have to ask questions about stuff.

Chase:     Weaponized incompetence!

Courn:     Yeah, it's like every sitcom of the shitty dads like that's literally how men become like that. Like I just hate that even though I wasn't like forcibly trained, my mom never like gave me that vibe of like you need to learn how to cook and clean. It just became a thing that society forced on me as I got older.

Chase:     Isn't that funny how some things like you almost like learn to pick up and then obviously like society kind of tells you, you need to do that. And so you just realize, oh, I need to do these things and learn these behaviors in order to get blank or in order to have a partner, or have a roommate, or whatever it is because most people are not going to live with messy people. They might. My dad was the opposite of that. He like always was doing chores and was like helping out and I think it was because my mom would be really upset at him if he had a day off and wasn't cleaning and helping her out and so he was like neurotically, like trauma response cleaning, or like you know it's like his first day off in like months or something, and like he'd be up doing laundry and ironing.

Courn:     That kinda sucks too!

Chase:     So, it's like it's kind of funny how like but like it wasn't ever in our house like that, where he's like because he hated that stereotype of like, the dad who comes home like doesn't do anything, it's just grouchy like, he didn't like that either. But there was never like a point to say to like my sister and I, oh you need to learn these things cuz you're gonna be a wife one day. Blah, blah, blah!

Courn:     Yeah, I'm like, I feel like my dad believed those things, but he didn't really say that stuff like in passing mainly just because he didn't talk to me. I could count the amount of conversations I've had with my dad since I was born. But yeah, I do feel like, I mean, my brothers were never taught to do anything. They weren't taught to cook. And I feel like I leaned into a lot of those tropes as I got older too. Cause I feel like it was a running joke in late high school and early college for a lot of my friends to be like, oh, Courn like can't cook. Like they're just really not good at domestic things, like they're really so bad at cooking, they're so bad at cleaning and that was just like a running thing like, oh and I'm like yeah, I'm just I'm just such a bad woman, how am I ever you know gonna find a partner?

Chase:     How am I gonna find a man?

Courn:     And I love leaning into it And that's the toxic part of me. I always just like, well, I guess I'm just not gonna do it. I don't need to do it. I'm working.

Chase:     Look how far I got.

Courn:     Yeah, and then it always comes up. Cause when I tell people that my partner does all my cooking for me, they're just like first, like, how could that be a cis man? And I'm like, I'm sorry you guys date trash. I get that cis men statistically suck on average, but I don't think it's that surprising, but I feel like because everyone's just like, oh you're so lucky and I'm like what do you mean we split?

Chase:     That is yeah that's another wild thing and like that was I don't know maybe it's just in like queer relationships where you talk about it more and like you don't subscribe to nearly as many like toxic assumptions in the gender role, but yeah when people just like assume or you're so lucky, like oh I wish my man did that and you're like well, like you should be with someone who does that if you want them to do that. Also it's not that hard to take your dirty skid mark underwear and drop it in the laundry basket.

Courn:     Correct! That shit actually drives, my dad would never do that and I still think about it because like-

Chase:     That’s so weird!

Courn:     Every time I go in their bedroom, just his clothes all on his side, just on the ground, and they have like a very nice laundry basket. He would leave dishes on the ground when he was done with them I'm telling you about that.

Chase:     That is too much!

Courn:     But then also he was so picky about cleanliness, like it was so weird, like my dad-

Chase:     Not applied to himself?

Courn:     No, but he'd always have hand sanitizer out, he definitely critiqued other people for like being really dirty, and I feel like a lot of that rubbed off on me in bad ways.

Chase:     Yeah, yeah, because then you, just but like you don't really like notice them until something prompts it or again, socialized to be a woman and socialized to this role, do you have to be the one that like self analyzes and like realizes that something is up because I don't feel like men are socialized to like self reflect in that way and like checking as to why something isn't working, what is going on, and like why are my friends mad at me? Why can't I keep apart? Any of the things you know like versus how you're socialized to be a woman it's like, you know.

Courn:     I know so many people have talked about this and I've seen so many infographics. I don't know, what the exact wording is. It's like the burden of task management and of labor management that a lot of women hold. Like okay, maybe your husband will do stuff if you ask him to, but he never does it in the first place. He doesn't notice, oh, the soap's low. Whereas maybe someone that's in that more domestic-

Chase:     That hyper-vigilance.

Courn:     Yeah, domestic position. I feel like I've talked about my partner with this. I'm just like, I'm always aware of everything. I know we're low on dog food. I know when we have to get stuff done. Like I know when we need to do like do weeds in the backyard. I know we need to do chores and like, I'm just supposed to like tell him when to do stuff and that bothers me a lot. But I'm like, I've come to realize like that's where I have strengths. And it works in our relationship, because he does more chores than I do. I just have to tell him to do it. But that burden, it sucks.

Chase:     It does. Do you think that's what do you, well, let's see. Where do you think that is? Is that like a trauma response? Is that more of a trait? Is that like an upbringing combo of something?

Courn:     I think all the above. I definitely think it's like a people-pleasing thing, a high level, where you feel like you need to take control of every situation. Like where you think it's your responsibility, not only with tasks, like to keep everything in your home together, but also that if someone's mad, that it's your responsibility to cheer them up, even if it has nothing to do with you. And I think that can be applied to so many things in life where people just feel like they have to task manage everything that's going on when like it's not your job to do that. Sometimes it's not even like something you should be doing. You're hurting yourself. You're hurting that person by stepping into their life and controlling them. But.

Chase:     Yeah. Especially as a child if your parents were the ones who were always tasking you to like manage those things or like, I don't know, maybe they gave you tasks to do while you're like home for summer break, but like maybe it's too many for what you could do and what was appropriate for your age and so like maybe you had a childhood where you were expected to like notice those things and do them before the parent noticed because you would get in trouble if the parent noticed you know or like if it, yeah, if it went on and didn't get done, the parent would just be like why isn't this getting done and then like you were at fault for that even though they're the adult so like it could be a trauma response.

Courn:     Oh definitely!

Chase:     You said controlling things that you couldn't control especially for me, like growing up I didn't have control almost of anything in my life in a high control group. So the little things that I could latch onto as an adult, especially as I initially left that cult was cleaning. Like it was cleaning, it's the schedule, it was the work, it was my workouts. It was like so hyper fixated and controlled on that. So, okay. A little combo of everything.

Courn:     I could see that. Definitely the trauma response. I do remember my dad, like he'd like randomly go in my room and just be like, oh, something's dirty. And like, it always kept me on this like-

Chase:     On edge.

Courn:     Yeah, very vigilant. And I'm like, my room has to be cleaned at all times. But I'm like also trying to do arts and crafts and do all this shit. So I feel like I just wouldn’t stuff in my room. I just like sit in there with it clean and I'm like, okay, I don't wanna make a mess.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     But then also me, like, I don't know, I'd paint furniture in my room. My mom would get so pissed off at me.

Chase:     Really?

Courn:     I always made a mess of everything in my room.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     I liked ruin the walls. I ruined the floors. I ruined everything as a kid. I was very like non-intentionally messy, but I would just be like, oh, okay, I watch a lot of HGTV and that's toxic. So I'd be like, oh, I'm gonna repaint my dresser with my 99 cent acrylic paint I have from Joann's. And like my mom would come in there and be like why is there clothes on top of this area and it's because I messed up with the paint, tried to remove it with nail polish remover, and there's just a giant glob of like missing wood and I'm like-

Chase:     I don't know!

Courn:     Not me.

Chase:     My brother came in.

Courn:     Yeah, no and she knew that was BS.

Chase:     Wow, see and I like didn't care about my stuff enough in my room to like want to do any of that. My room was pretty messy until I got maybe like a tween.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     And then I started having people over or friends over to the house in my room and they didn't want to be like, oh let's go hang on your room and I was like oh, no. It's so messy. Yeah, yeah so then I got like pretty good about cleaning, my sister was pretty messy my dad would be so mad but then like her mental health was like not good and pretty apparent so they took it easy on her, but they hated how messy her room was, yet their room was just as cluttered!

Courn:     Yeah, there's always double standards I feel like with kids and stuff, but I think it is hard. I think it's interesting you bring up the mental health thing, because I feel like I had a roommate who did not clean anything for years, and they were going through a really, really hard time. So it's hard for me to be like, oh you should be doing all these things but like-

Chase:     Lead by example ain't always easy. It's not as easy as that.

Courn:     No, but it's like ah, they were having like so many mental health problems going through all these crises, and like I didn't mind like having to step up and do stuff, but like you know a couple years and like they just didn't do their dishes. They just leave dishes like on their bed for days and stuff. And I just was like, god, this really sucks.

Chase:     You bring up a good point with that. And that's probably a challenge that we faced as well living with a roommate at one point is like, everyone has different standards of what they want clean, how frequent they want it clean, and like you said mental health, we're all at different points. Maybe we all have some lows or you got some highs and like the opposite with people, so how do you manage that?And I've had my fair share of roommates who had different standards of me and I was usually the more clean one, but it was like almost to a fault, so it's definitely easier when you live with just your partner, but even then like I don't know my partner and I live have different standards. Different preferences.

Courn:     I think it's hard like if you're not super, or even if you are super close to that roommate, I think it's different. Like for me, I think with romantic relationships, it's really easy for me to tell my partner like, okay, you need to do this.

Chase:     Oh totally!

Courn:     But it's like, it was hard with like a really close friend. Like, I don't want to just be like, dude, you're a mess. Like, I'm sorry, but you could not leave a cutting board in the sink for 5 days that's covered in like raw meat. Like that's disgusting. Please pick that up. Like don't leave your trash.    

Chase:     Stinky, stinky!

Courn:     Like put your recycling away. Like it's hard to have those conversations. So I think it just like bred a lot of hostility. And I think I was not the greatest person to live with because I was super anal about cleaning and I was very much like in my superiority of being like, well, these are the rules and you need to clean this way.

Chase:     Yeah, same!

Courn:     And if you don't clean this way, then you're a bad roommate. And like, yeah, I think that was toxic to me.

Chase:     That was toxic of me, I’ve done that in the past.

Courn:     I think I've learned a lot from that now. But I mean, I understand why I acted like that. I just very much latched on to like, oh well house needs to be clean. I don't understand why you don't do it. This is the rules.

Chase:     Like just do it. Which is also very toxic because it's not as easy as just doing it. We know that!

Courn:     No they were going through all this shit and I just was like kind of being an asshole.

Chase:     Yeah, and we know that even with ourselves like sometimes cleaning this thing or tidying this thing should just be as easy as just doing it, but it's not it's not that easy when you've got all these layers of trauma and neurodivergency.

Courn:     Yeah, I just some people aren't compatible to live together. Some people can be great friends and they should never live together. And I think that's something I did not learn.

Chase:     Yeah, that's fair. You asked about cleaning the kitchen cupboards and stuff. I also didn't realize you're supposed to clean out your vacuum. Did you ever learn that kind of stuff? I didn't know I was supposed to clean my cleaning products in a way. Obviously the mop is like, yeah, clean that out. But like, yeah, the vacuum.

Courn:     I didn't know that till I got a Dyson because it would get clogged all the fucking time. And they're like, you have to clean the filter. I'm like, what do you mean I have to clean the filter that's supposed to filter for me.

Chase:     Yeah, it's supposed to like filter all the dirt that it's picking up so it doesn't just like suck up dirt and push it back in the air. Yeah, no because especially with a dog, I feel like the dog makes the vacuum stinky pretty quick, even again the dog is like relatively clean, we bathe him regularly, he's not that gross but like you just got that dog smell and so you gotta-

Courn:     He's got that dog in him! The vacuums got that dog in him!

Chase:     *laughs* I hate you!

Courn:     *laughs* You knew where that was going!

Chase:     I know, I know, so like yeah like got done vacuuming it's like crap it's been a while since I've probably like rinsed out the little thing and I was like gotta cut the hair out of the little bristles, like you gotta clean the cleaning, the baseboards, you gotta clean the baseboards, bro!

Courn:     Baseboards are actually the one thing I just I look away!

Chase:     What, we need to stop putting white baseboards in the house.

Courn:     I agree, because also they just get dinged up. Yeah, so easily.

Chase:     They just need to be a color that is like a little more camouflaging.

Courn:     Yeah. Because you look at anyone's white baseboards and it's just really dirty.

Chase:     Why don't we put some stone or tiling?

Courn:     I'm going to get my toe fucking stubbed by that. That's what's going to happen. But-

Chase:     How much are you kicking baseboards over there?

Courn:     A lot.

Chase:     What?

Courn:     A lot. I literally told you how I thought I broke my toe a couple months ago.

Chase:     That's right. That was so good.

Courn:     Literally the whole thing went red.

Chase:     You might have like sprained or broken it. I don't know.

Courn:     I sprained it when I looked up pictures of a sprain.

Chase:     That's fair.

Courn:     I'm embarrassed I had to look up pictures of broken toes. But I needed to be sure I didn't want to go to the doctor.

Chase:     Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like just on top of that, like cleaning the cleaning products, or like you said all the little like details cleaning, like above the stove wiping down all the little things. You gotta wash out your trash can every now and then. You know, because sometimes food gets in there, it gets stinky.

Courn:     Dude, trash cans get so gross. I'm so embarrassed that I would literally just buy a new trash can every year because it gets so stinky and I'd spray it and it's like, okay, they're just like cleaning the food gunk. And that little crack.

Chase:     It's gross. I'm not scrubbing that out.

Courn:     No, and that's bad.

Chase:     There's people who clean out their like trash cans outside. Like the actual can that goes and gets picked up. Like on top of that, environmental products, like I'm supposed to get products that are good for the environment but they don't really clean, but the ones that do clean are really bad for like our water.

Courn:     Yeah, and you could like pass out and die while spraying them!

Chase:     You accidentally mix the wrong things!

Courn:     It's like, like it's like bleach and one other product that like literally makes tear gas or something!

Chase:     I’m saying! So many hoops to just be clean. Even then, I don't feel like I'm living an exorbitant amount of clean, but like someone help me figure this out.

Courn:     No, why is there just also so many products too? Like tell me why I have a glass cleaner, a multi-purpose cleaner, a floor cleaner, a stainless steel cleaner, a bathroom cleaner, a toilet cleaner, a dusting solution?! Like.

Chase:     Why can't the all-in-one just be the all-in-one? All-purpose!

Courn:     Yeah, because they don't work and you buy an all-purpose one and literally try to use it on glass or some shit and it just smears.

Chase:     Tell me why I see some videos online of like experts and people who know like cleaning products or chemists and stuff, and they're like actually this product doesn't clean, look at the ingredients, it's just color and water and I'm like is this true, should I not be using this? Should I use this instead? I want it to smell good but I'm not trying to have it stink. Ah!

Courn:     Like, yeah, I haven't gone down the rabbit hole of like making my own cleaning products. I get why people do it, but.

Chase:     But is it that, is it clean? Does it work?

Courn:     I don't know.

Chase:     That's the thing.

Courn:     I don't even know if it's actually clean. I don't even really care about sanitizing. I just don't want to see stains and shit on my things. And that's what matters most to me.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     Like I feel like I can't use stuff with bleach in it because that always gets all over me and it makes a mess.

Chase:     Exactly. But it's supposed to be like really potent and effective. But aren't you supposed to dilute that? And now they got bleach you can put in your clothes that doesn't like mess up the colors.

Courn:     That's beyond me.

Chase:     See, there's a lot.

Courn:     I'm just too lazy to do that stuff. I literally have like one of those subscriptions that just sends me multi-purpose cleaner and the bottles and you, I have reusable bottles I just poured in, put water in, and I get whatever glass cleaner, all-purpose cleaner, bathroom cleaner. And I'm like that's good enough.

Chase:     We should do an experiment where we just try cleaning like our bathroom with an all-purpose cleaner or like, I don't know-

Courn:     I've done it before, I didn’t even know bathroom cleaner was a thing, I guess it's like fights mildew and grease?

Chase:     Yeah, yeah, you got to get some that are like soap scum, you know all that stuff and like you said the grease one, the grease one is the hardest for me. I'm like how do I get a grease cleaning product that isn't terrible for the environment and that like isn't just smearing it everywhere, soap and water I’m like.

Courn:     I feel like I have a lot of beef with stainless steel cleaner because like tell me why someone decided to make a material that like doesn't look clean.

Chase:     I would never get stainless steel on purpose.

Courn:     Literally all of our bathroom fixtures in our house are stainless steel and not like the good kind, but the kind that literally if you touch it, it just suddenly gets a-

Chase:     Oil mark?

Courn:    Yeah and I use stainless steel cleaner and it still doesn't look clean. I've had people be like oh you need to use this exact solution, no!

Chase:     And then you gotta wipe in the right direction.

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     Use the right cloth.

Courn:     Stop making stuff that's hard to clean, I don’t know!

Chase:     That’s a hot take! There are, I ,okay hot take is that products are intentionally made hard to clean so you have to buy their specific cleaner. That way you have to like consistently go back to that company for purchases and like keep giving them your money.

Courn:     Yes. I'll take it a step further, products are made not to be cleaned, they can't be cleaned so that you have to buy another one. Like I feel like that's like half of light fixtures and shit, like they don't clean well all that Ikea stuff it doesn't clean well.

Chase:     How do you dust well without the dusters like impacting the environment as much as they do. Because my mom loves the Swiffers and those Swiffers are fantastic. They're never going to decompose. It's like a disposable diaper. They're just there forever.

Courn:     Well, I think that's just like a big question too. It's just like, what do you prioritize more? So like this comes up a lot in disability spaces like when you have to choose between what is a disability accommodation and what is like bad for the environment. Because like let's be real so many things that are very hard for disabled people to do, like even doing the dishes and shit, like people who only use paper plates and plastic utensils and you could objectively just be like, that is so bad for the environment why aren't you reusing stuff! Someone doesn't have the ability to do that at the moment, that could be the difference between them not eating for the day if they can't use something that can be easily thrown away.

Chase:     Oh yeah or even just like low-income families they don't have time or households to like clean and put those away. And just like, it's easier to just like throw it on the disposable plate, throw it in the microwave, eat it, throw it away, boom. That saves you 20 minutes in dishes.

Courn:     Yeah. I mean, reusable items sound great for the environment, but they're also so much more work to deal with. And that's coming from someone like, I'm a no paper household for the most part, like we don't use napkins and we don't use like paper towels for cleaning but that means we have to constantly wash napkins and towels like multiple times a week and that's super annoying, that doesn't inherently mean it's good for the environment I'm still using a washer.

Chase:     I was just gonna say does the water then offset like, I don't know.

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     I don't know.

Courn:     For me, I just didn't like buying paper towels. That was my main thing. Because we went through so much paper towels. My family is the type that would like use half a roll to eat dinner and that always like drove me wild.

Chase:     We made the switch to like the reusable paper towel type stuff or even just like you can kind of make your own cloth.

Courn:     Yeah, fabric and stuff.

Chase:     Oh yeah, it's a game changer. We save a lot of money doing that stuff. So that's the other thing, I'm like is there there's some really good environmental products you can get that actually save you a lot of money, but it is like more work. And so it might not be accessible to everybody.

Courn:     I think it's a privilege to even like, I don't know, have the time to think about that.

Chase:     Yeah, very privileged!

Courn:     But I feel like, I just see a lot of and I think I went down this rabbit hole and I think everyone does like if you go in your liberal 20s, where you're like oh, everything should be reusable, I can't get takeout food, like I have to use reusable grocery bags, it's the most important thing in the world when it's like environmentally, that's not making the biggest impact. Like there's a balance of-

Chase:    Oh my gosh, yes

Courn:     Doing both, like don't berade people like, I know so many disabled people who can't make their own meals have to get takeout and instant food every day and that does mean way more packaging. That doesn't mean they're a bad person.

Chase:     That's a good point though. I want these things to make a difference, but we all know that it's the corporate waste that is ruining the earth. These hundreds of thousands of people doing this thing daily. Me using a different type of toothpaste and like using a reusable bag is not gonna save the environment.

Courn:     That's the thing and I think it's like it doesn't have to be either or. I think you should always be assigning main blame to the people who are actually having the most impact on the environment. Which is these big corporations, it is big governments who are not controlled by legislation to actually put restrictions on pollution. But that doesn't mean like, oh if you're able to you know make some switches like, why not? Don't be an asshole about it.

Chase:     Do it if you can!

Courn:     But like there's no reason to like hound disabled and poor people.

Chase:     Don't make it a moral superiority thing where you're better than someone because you can or can't do something.

Courn:     Yeah, like it literally bothers me like, I don't, this has come up a lot but I feel like the groceries, I get annoyed that we do grocery pickups because I can't handle being in the grocery store, it's easier for my partner to not do it either. But like you can't use reusable bags when you do that and if you get delivered you can't use reusable bags either, but some activists are just like, that's the biggest pressing problem, straws and paper bags. Like that's why the environment's dying.

Chase:     The Starbucks paper plastic lid.

Courn:     Yeah. I'm sorry. Like I think you could make everyday switches and that's great. I like doing that stuff too. Like I like using reusable water bottles and coffee mugs and reusable bags. I think that's cool but don't shame other people. You don't know what's going on.

Chase:     That's a good point. That's a good segue as to like maybe as we wrap up about accommodations with cleaning. Like you've talked about having hiring someone to come clean the house what kind of accommodations have you put in place for yourself now to get things cleaned?

Courn:     I mean, in reference I think to getting the house cleaner was probably the biggest accommodation that I ever did. And that's definitely a big privilege, but it definitely was like a lot cheaper than I thought. Like, it was like a hundred dollars the first few times we did it, and then it got more and stuff. But I think probably the biggest accommodation for me now, and now that I'm handling all of this stuff myself, is like breaking it up into feasible tasks because there's no reality in which I could do what our house cleaner did for that year, which was come over clean the entire house in 6 hours, that's freaking insane! They were working at a level that I'm not even sure is healthy for them-

Chase:     Probably not!

Courn:     But definitely not healthy for me. So I think for big for me is breaking up into tasks, like giving tasks my partner that I'm not good at and vice versa. And like you don't have to clean the bathroom every week if you can't. Like you need to prioritize tasks and what makes sense to you because you can't get everything done every week. Like, I'll give myself no more than like 2 hours a weekend to do all the cleaning. Any more than that I feel like is wasting my life away.

Chase:     Well yeah, the weekend is what you know, 10 hour days, 12 hour days, I don't know how long you're up for. 2 of those hours yeah, okay. So just breaking it up into like pieces and stuff.

Courn:     Yeah, and I mean I definitely feel like I make every accommodation I can too. I feel like cleaning is very hard on your body too so like I do everything that I can sitting down

Chase:     Oh, okay!

Courn:     I'm like on stools and stuff, like if I have to like whatever dust my collection, I will sit down put a stool down I have many different heights of stools that I use for cleaning and dusting because I just can't be on my feet also for 2 hours like, I'll kill over.

Chase:     That's a good one, I never thought about that.

Courn:     I try to make it a game too like I like to listen to a Korean podcast while I'm doing it so then I trick myself that I'm learning and I'm not doing chores, but you know maybe that's just hacking your brain.

Chase:     I used to do that and then I obsessively was like I have to listen to a podcast while I clean up that's a waste of time but, you know go off, whatever works for you!

Courn:     That's not, that's not the point of view, you have but then also here's me I'm like dusting trinkets and I'm just like oh, it's repeating Korean phrases! Raymond’s like, what are you doing?

Chase:     You're like what are you talking about?

Courn:     And I'm just like je ireumeun Cournimnida, and he's like what the f**k are you on and I'm just repeating them in the podcast and stuff!

Chase:     Because he doesn't hear it's just like in your headphone or something. Okay, nice. Those are some good ones.

Courn:     What about you?

Chase:     Definitely splitting up with my partner and picking our strengths. Like you said, assigning stuff that like we can and cannot do because my partner just like you said, it's too much to go to the store or something, so we trade off like while I go to the store they basically like bust down a bunch of chores. I'm gonna like you know bust out what I can and we kind of do it together. We both noticed that like cleaning when you're alone in the house is much easier. Do you notice that at all?

Courn:     Correct.

Chase:     Why is that?

Courn:     I don't know, and I don't know. Also my partner just like likes cleaning late at night and like not when, I like to clean in the morning. So we're never cleaning at the same time anyway, but I've just noticed when they're not around like I don't know, maybe they're not getting in my way yeah or just easier to like focus like I'll blare loud music and stuff and like be in the zone and like he's kind of the same way too.

Chase:     Yeah, I think my biggest accommodation is just like better acceptance honestly cuz I used to just hound myself about like everything needs to be clean like weekly cleaning, and like all the stuff, and it's a matter of just like accepting what I can and can't do for the week, pushing stuff off, giving myself lots of time and the allowance to change my mind if I'm like oh, I'm planning to clean the house or trying to vacuum after I get home today and I get home and just had a long day and I'm like, I cannot, I will try this tomorrow or it's gonna wait till the weekend and then just being okay with that because that was really tough. But those are probably the main ones I can think about.

Courn:     I think giving your grace, giving yourself grace is a very big one because I feel like, I know I get so many questions on Instagram, they're like, how do you keep your house so clean? Like, what is the secret? Like, there's no information that's suddenly gonna like, you know, be able to hack your life so that you can be, I don't know, have no difficulties cleaning. Especially just like as an autistic or ADHD person, you're always going to have difficulties in this task regulation.

Chase:     Yeah, and I'm not someone who, whose disability like really does make like the physicality of cleaning difficult, like I'm pretty okay to do all that, it's just like I think the mental piece and like kind of the emotional stuff so.

Courn:     And that's a big piece too I mean it is like it definitely reinforces it like.

Chase:     Another hot take I think I have is that hacks and like the word hacks are such a privileged thing to say and that like they don't work. Like it's just what is a hack? What?

Courn:     Yeah it's like, I hate those like ADHD like, hack your brain!

Chase:     Yeah, like there's no one secret thing that you're not doing to suddenly get you to do the thing and like there's a lot of assumptions and bias in that and so like I just I hate those.

Courn:     I think I preys on a lot of vulnerable people too. It always comes back to this where it's just like there's no easy solution, like I'm sorry, like there's no information you're magically gonna learn that's gonna make you not disabled. That's not how it works.

Chase:     Because a hack is always pulling you into like a standard, and it's like pulling you into neurotypical like cishet, any of the things like it's just pulling you into whatever, like something, what's the word I'm looking for like just a societal standard that you might not actually live in.

Courn:     Yeah I just think the word like hack gonna kind of like commodified and like gentrified in a way that everyone's always using that for stuff and I always think of those stupid whatever like craft videos where they're like life hacks and they like cut a hole in their shirt instead of just like I don't know buying a tank top.

Chase:     Like just videos online when it's like 3, 4 extra things to do one thing that actually could have just been done!

Courn:     Like, oh yeah my flip-flop strap broke let me make a new one out of a brick!

Chase:     Or it's like a plastic bag and they like weave it in and they're like hair gluing and stuff. Hack.

Courn:     Maybe their first like 5 videos were cool, but then it like I think some it's cool to share information and be like, hey, this works for me. This is something that can work for you. But like, I don't know, don't market something like this works for everyone yeah you can revolutionize your life.

Chase:     Pretty much!

Courn:     All you need is a life coach and pay me 500 bucks an hour for it, just take this thousand dollar master class I made!

Chase:     Wait I shouldn't go to that master class this weekend?

Courn:     No!

Chase:     Okay well, I'm gonna go cancel that, bye!

Courn:     Bye!

Chase:     Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So, if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!

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Episode 19: Sex is an executive task