Episode 19: Sex is an executive task

Chase:     Welcome to Neurotakes, this is Chase!

Courn:     This is Courn!

Chase:     Let's get into it. Sex and intimacy as AuDHD humans is kind of a unique topic, especially because this one over here is asexual. And I feel like that's an extra layer on top of the experience.

Courn:     Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Chase:     Yeah. And like, I don't hear a lot of discourse about it, but I might not be on the right side of the internet to like hear it. So that was also something I had to juggle a lot in my relationship as we both got diagnosed formally, pretty early on into dating, and so we wanted to talk about that today. But first, Courn, didn't you get on a new list for something?

Courn:     I got on 2 lists!

Chase:     Wait lists.

Courn:     Yes, I got on a list for top surgery, which I found out that not everyone knows what top surgery is.

Chase:     Oh, okay.

Courn:     Yeah, that's just gender affirming surgery for your chest, which could be, you know, adding stuff, removing stuff. For me, it's a double mastectomy. So, yeah, I'm very excited because I've been wanting to do it for years. Apparently should have put my name on the list years ago when I initially thought, because then maybe I would have got it sometime soon.

Chase:     Yeah, and now you're still just like, now that you've made the choice, you still gotta wait. You could have been like in line while you were deciding and got out of line.

Courn:     Correct. For some reason, I also thought the wait lists were like for surgery and they're the wait lists for consultation, which you can't just like go and ask a consultation at most places. Like at OHSU, they require you to have like a referral from your doctor, testimony from a therapist, which can be quite annoying all to get. But yeah, that's how you get on the list just to find out if you can do it.

Chase:     That's so wild. I didn't realize or I didn't even think about top surgery could even go the other way of like adding things. I didn't even think about that. I didn't. Geez.

Courn:     I mean people always assume that like it's always just like removing stuff, but yeah, I mean people get elective, I mean, yeah the idea of elective is also like controversial. Is it elective or is it gender-affirming care?

Chase:     But that's a good point. I didn't think about it. It is considered elective on paper, huh?

Courn:     It is, which is why some why it's like very delayed. But yeah, I think you could argue it's not elective. I mean some people quite literally do die because they don't get gender-affirming care. So.

Chase:     Which man that's so wild to think about. That's taken me a while to like wrap my head around and like have understanding of because it's not something I've experienced or gone through, but like I can see the like depression and like all that kind of feeds into it, right?

Courn:     Yeah, I mean I didn't think I had that much gender dysphoria until the past couple of years seeing other trans people and non-binary people like really live authentically. And this sounds very cliche, but I watched, I saw the TV glow when that first came out, like, I don't know, 3 months ago. I literally bawled. And I thought about that movie for days, weeks. I still think about it. And full transparency is just a movie. Like it's a very obvious allegory. It's not even an allegory. It is quite literally a one-to-one of the trans experience of being buried alive and not being able to be your true self. It's very sad. If you're a trans person, that movie will make you cry.

Chase:     Wow. Or just anyone who has a heart.

Courn:     Yeah, for sure. You might just like resonate a little bit more, but I was like, yeah, for sure. Damn. I was like, I need to do something.

Chase:     Okay. Yeah. I haven't seen it. That's wild.

Courn:     Recommend. It's also very cinematically beautiful.

Chase:     Yeah. Okay. All right. You want to, I have a few more questions. You open to them?

Courn:     Oh yeah, rapid fire. No, I will not. I will not do that.

Chase:     Oh gosh, I hate, okay. How long have you been thinking about the choice to have surgery?

Courn:     I mean, I think seriously, probably like 2 years. I didn't really know the surgery existed probably prior to like 5 years. Or I thought that you had to be like wanting to go from like female to male or male to female to like get something.

Chase:     Like full transition essentially.

Courn:     Yeah, to like qualify for it but turns out that's not the case. There's a lot of non-binary people who also get it for gender affirming care. So I just didn't really know that was an option until I saw other people doing it. But the past year, I think I've been very seriously like I already had that conversation with my partner, like I think maybe like last fall or something when I initially brought it up. And I was just like, yeah, I think I want to do this. And I know it may affect our intimacy and the way you view me, but I need to do this.

Chase:     How did you feel preparing and having that conversation?

Courn:     Really awkward, Which is weird because I don't know I love my partner and they've never given me a doubt that they wouldn't love my body if it changed. I mean it has changed a lot, but it definitely is different when it's something like you're going to get done. It's not necessarily something that's like happening without my consent. I want to get it done.

Chase:     And you're like going out of your way to make it happen.

Courn:     Yeah. And I think it's hard. Like I just think like he maybe didn't understand why I feel the need to do that, but he understands that it's important to me. So I think there's a little bit of growth. I'm not going to call my partner out. I think they gave a very normal response. I think they definitely had concerns about intimacy, liking that part of my body and being like, it's going to be different when it's gone. And that's totally valid. So yeah.

Chase:     Them knockers. Break the ice.

Courn:     I mean, you know, losing the C/D cups is a pretty, pretty big deal. And I know that like, I don't know, I'm an ace person. I don't really see, I don't really understand boobs and the sexual thing with them. I'm just like, oh, they're fat on your body. That's a very ace, autistic thing to say, to be like, it's just fat on your body. What's the big deal? So I think I maybe was like, oh, it's not that big a deal. And I think it was to my partner. So I think it goes both ways. I think, you know, when you're getting gender affirming surgery, like, of course it's for yourself, but I think, I mean, I think your partner should have an opinion on it, should be able to like share their feedback with you, not saying that like you don't do it because of something they say, but.

Chase:     Right, well yeah, like partners are are and should be allowed to obviously have their have their feelings and like maybe even be upset who knows like go through that process but like express those things and whatever else because.

Courn:     That's what I'll say, I'm like you're valid to have any opinion you have on it and to feel whatever you feel, but like it wouldn't be fair if my partner would be like oh, don't do it then! No, he has never said anything like that.

Chase:     Don't lob off the melons!

Courn:     He’s just like, oh I don't know how I'm gonna feel about it till it gets done and I'm like okay that's fair.

Chase:     Yeah, that's true because you're kind of in this like waiting period. Yeah. Is there anything in the process so far that you wish you would have known earlier on now that you're starting to go through the process?

Courn:     Oooh. I think I'm too early along probably to have those insights, but I feel like, I feel like I got a lot of weird facts from the therapist who wrote my letter for a recommendation. Like they were kind of giving me like a fast rapid explanation of stuff they have to do legally to tell me. But they were just like, okay and by the way make sure you don't smoke. And I was like, oh, I've never smoked. They're like, no, I'm serious. Like, you need to tell me if you were going to smoke in any capacity, I don't care what it is.

Chase:     Cigarettes, weed?

Courn:     Yeah, they were like, if you smoke with your aftercare, your nipples could fall off.

Chase:     Oh my gosh. Are you serious?

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     Whoa.

Courn:     I didn't actually fact check this after maybe I should, but I feel like, I don't know. They also had top surgery.

Chase:     Okay. Okay.

Courn:     So, they seemed like a reliable person and they were like a professional, but they were like, maybe that's just a complication that could happen. But yeah, something about, I think it's like new skin coming off. Cause it's like that with wisdom teeth too. You're not supposed to smoke. I don't know.

Chase:     Specifically.

Courn:     What the lungs have to do with it.

Chase:     Okay. But okay.

Courn:     Immune system.

Chase:     Well I know like smoking cigarettes has an impact on your anesthesia. Like when you go under. So like a lot of people who actually smoke like regularly can't have like anesthesia for some reason or so there's like a complication where like you can't have certain surgeries because you have to be put under and if you smoke then like that's not a viable thing, interesting so like.

Courn:     They were just saying that's a big risk thing a lot of people get taken off the list because they lie about their smoking and it does cause complications. Also that the healing process is a lot quicker than I thought it was, like you can be pretty healed like you can get the drains out within a couple weeks and then you're pretty good at a month.

Chase:     It was like 6 weeks, I thought it was my understanding but maybe each person's different?

Courn:     Yeah each person is different, but yeah, they're like also you can't have your dogs around you while you're healing, they can't sleep in the same room. I'm obviously not anywhere near to that but yeah it can cause infection.

Chase:     Oh okay.

Courn:     I mean you're gonna have open wounds on your chest.

Chase:     Even when you take the bandages off?

Courn:     No, after the bandages. So while you actively have the drains.

Chase:     Oh, Jesus. I didn't even know that this was part of the process.

Courn:     Yeah, you can't raise your arms when you're healing. I feel like I followed a lot of like people who've gotten surgery and like, you hear about those kinds of things, but you don't hear about the more in-depth stuff. Like, oh, we can't really touch your pets, which seems like very, you know, trivial things.

Chase:     That's gonna be hard. Like it's one of those, it feels like one of those daily things you don't think about but I mean, I think the more we can document the process and share everyone's experience the more people can be educated and learn more and maybe like not decriminalize what's the word I'm thinking of? But like, just like not-

Courn:     Demystify? Destigmatize?

Chase:     Yeah, exactly. Those 2 words of just like making it more normalized.

Courn:     And yeah, I will say there's so much great information out there. Like I just like quickly Googled like, oh, stuff you should do before top surgery, Reddit, Google. And then there's just all these great-

Chase:     Hit the gym, hit those pecs!

Courn:     I mean, there's people like, oh yeah, you need to improve your posture because it's different when your posture is like inclined. And then when you get your boobs removed, you can look like a little concave and maybe people don't want to look like present that way. So they're like, oh yeah, you want to work on your posture. So like-

Chase:     I do. I'm curious how your back's gonna feel. Cause I feel like a lot of folks who have anything bigger than like a C, they're always just like, oh my back! I can’t really-

Courn:     I hope helps! That was like gonna be my second approach. I asked very early on with my doctor like what do you think would be a better approach to get my boobs removed via gender-affirming surgery or like saying I have like a frontal boob pain and they were just like oh the gender-affirming surgery, like it's illegal not to cover it in Oregon, that's the way to go.

Chase:     Wow, that's cool I didn't know that about organ. Yeah, way to go organ.

Courn:     And apparently there's different specialists too for top surgery because there's a lot of different like outtakes, I guess prioritizations, like some people want to look more masculine when they get it's like there's more you can go no nipples-

Chase:     In different shapes, in like different ways to like, yeah to set it, I believe that's probably not the right word but-

Courn:     I don't know, apparently not all like plastic surgeons who do like, I don't know, breasts do top surgery which to me is kind of a miss. I think you should know how to do that, but.

Chase:     That's fair, that's fair.

Courn:     Which is why we have such long waiting times because there's only a couple doctors at each hospital who want to do it and are about it, so.

Chase:     Yeah and support it. I had someone or I knew someone who they didn't have large breasts to begin with so they actually were able to go like through your nipple or your areola and take it off so there's like no under scar which is wild!

Courn:     I'm so jealous of that when I was looking at healing pics and then I looked at people with my cup sizes and I was like I'm gonna have some gnarly scars but you know, I literally don't care.

Chase:     It's gonna be sick, it’s gonna be awesome!

Courn:     I know some people are worried about that with intimacy and stuff but.

Chase:     My last question is about skin, what happens to all the skin? Is there like a thing about it like you just absorb it in your body?

Courn:     They must just throw it away, I would imagine they dispose of it.

Chase:     I don't know.

Courn:     Cause there's a lot of skin.

Chase:     Yeah that's what I'm saying, like not like a lot but they gotta close it, keep some of that?

Courn:     Yeah I think you get your nipples removed too, there's just a piece of skin with a nipple on it chilling in the trash, no I know there's like the proper waste for it and this may be gross but yeah, I had these thoughts!

Chase:     *laughs* Okay, wow. Thank you for the live Q&A. We'll have to keep giving some updates on this because I'm sure there's people listening who maybe are thinking about it or want to know more. I want to know more shit.

Courn:     Yeah, you can always comment on my post. I won't be offended if you ask an invasive question at least as you do it in a nice way. Don't be like the person who commented today. Why can you get top surgery and it's covered by insurance but I want a boob lift and it's not! There's a special place in hell for you to equate those two things. Thank you for unfollowing me.

Chase:     *laughs* Oh no.

Courn:     I'm sorry your boobs don't look perky and I just want to live in my body.

Chase:     You're like, I don't want these boobs. My wife and I think we should go into business with a detachable boob option because there's just some days you want them, some days you don't. I don't know.

Courn:     You’re onto something!

Chase:     I want the option. I want the options essentially. I don't want a permanent choice.

Courn:     I see. I know I’m messed up because I just thought of a whole thing. I was like, okay, so we have to stunt boob growth from a young age and then we can get shaped and fitted for boob attachments. You know, that hangover like straps. No, we're not doing that. That's some weird eugenic shit. But I do think about all the time that, I don't know, I know so many people that have like not a very large chest we're like, oh I would love your chest and vice versa people large chest wanting small chest, turns out we just want what we don't have.

Chase:     Yeah, that's fair. It's always genetics of like what you're giving you're like damn it's actually I don't want that I want the opposite!

Courn:     Yeah, I also think that was a stepping stone for me. Cause I made that same comment for years. I was like, oh, I wish I could just take them off. And then I was like, and then I was like but I don't want to put them back on. I don't wish they were reattachable.

Chase:     Ooooh!

Courn:     And that was the thing. Cause I talk about other people. That's what I could tell from other people who actually like their boobs they're like, oh yeah but I like how they look in tops and yeah I like them for this and I was like I actually don't like them for anything.

Chase:     Literally nothing! Yeah, oh wow that's so wild. Especially like I said with the ace factor, if you're just kind of like they're just neutral,

Courn:     That's how I feel!

Chase:     It’s an objective at this point. Yeah, that's so odd. Well getting a little bit more into our topic for today, I don't know like I didn't really realize sex and intimacy could be like such a challenge as an AuDHD person or couple or anything like that. That's wild, like I thought it was just like me being like, I got hella trauma.

Courn:     I mean, probably does not help, but no, I remember like that very early on when I was going on Instagram and getting into like especially ADHD spaces it is a topic that comes up a lot about like not necessarily like sexual dysfunction because that makes it seem like it's a medical thing, but like dissatisfaction is very common.

Chase:     Like a disconnection even?

Courn:     Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of different reasons too.

Chase:     Yeah, what have you found and like kind of know more about?

Courn:     Yeah, well I just know in general that like yeah ADHD folks are like reporting that they either have like under or hyper sexual desire. It seemed to be more on the hyper side, but I find myself on like the underside, obviously, because I'm ace. But apparently that hyper sexual desire low, that comes to like ADHD, executive dysfunctioning traits, other things like, oh, a need for impulsivity, novelty seeking, like rapid mood changes and like challenges with consistency. Like sex is a task for an ADHD brain. It's very much the same thing. So you will have trouble doing it. You'll have trouble consistently doing it. Like I notice, it's a lot of ADHD people just get like very easily like distracted in sex. I think that's something I've related to too. Something that just easily pull you out of the mood, like a very seeming full interruption, like yard noise outside or like, you know, your ice maker makes a weird noise.

Chase:     Literally. Mhmm.

Courn:     Yeah. And I think a lot of that when you have hyper or under sexual desire and maybe your partner doesn't align with that. I think that's where the dissatisfaction comes from, because it seems like a lot of people are experiencing that they're not having, I don't know, a match and that compatibility.

Chase:     Yeah, absolutely. That's a good point. The distracted thing was definitely something I experienced and struggled with because I was like, well, it didn't like the funny thing is it didn't really happen until I got into like a very secure relationship, which is like the most frustrating part is I was like, before I was in a relationship and I was just, you know, having my own experiences with whoever and doing whatever, like none of this like these challenges presented, and then all of a sudden I get into like a healthy safe like relationship and it's like way harder and I was like-

Courn:     Yeah, well it's also because you lost that novelty aspect and when you're with the same person. I'm not to say it's worse but it's just like I think that challenges an ADHD brain.

Chase:     But then that also, like to be the person on the other side of that, that's like kind of sucks, you know, to like, oh wow, I'm just like, I'm like this boring old thing now. And like, that's not at all that like how it is, but that's obviously how it comes across. And so like, we had to have a lot of conversations around that because yeah, sometimes you're like in the vibe you're in the moment you're feeling good and then just a errant thought just. And I'm like, oh I'm like shit and then like and then it just and then you know your partner can tell and then you're like feeling weird and so like again, I just thought that was like me being odd, but no, it's literally like my brain's struggle to stay just like engaged. So that's wild. But and like you said the level of desire too, I don't know about you. I learned a lot of my like sexual sex ed on like just movies and TV, which is so bad, right? And how it's like portrayed in the movies is what I was like learning and like told myself, like, oh, this is how you have sex, this is what you do. It's like spontaneous. It's like, you look at each other and it's like, boom. Yeah, okay, we're having sex.

Courn:     No foreplay!

Chase:     No foreplay, just like penetration. That's it. And of course a lot of straight sex and stuff and so those desires like spontaneous versus the like what's the opposite of spontaneous one, it's like the one we're gonna like think about it basically and how those two like play into it and if you have like mismatched desire with your partner you gotta like find ways to like find a middle ground. So we worked with our therapist a lot on that.

Courn:     Yeah I think the education piece is a big thing that you brought up though because I think a lot of it and because we always talk about intersectionality here I mean we both grew up in like AAPI households and they are notoriously not great for sex education. My parents never had to talk with me.

Chase:     Oh! Really?

Courn:     My mom said, you're going to learn at school and that's enough.

Chase:     Woah, they never had the talk!

Courn:     So I just didn't really know what to expect. And I think that made me very vulnerable and naive too in high school, just being like, oh yeah, people just have sex. And you also don't learn about, I don't know, centering like female pleasure or anything like that. Cause it's always just like you watch porn and that's very much from a male perspective. It's always from a male gaze, even media perspectives of sex. It's always from a male gaze, even media perspectives of sex. It's always from a male gaze, like 99% of the time. So when you don't learn how to properly, I don't know, have sex safety and boundaries and consent around it, I think it makes people really vulnerable when they get older. So, I mean, I think it'd be a scary thing too when you don't have education and that's not even going into like the disabled piece of like, most disabled kids like don't get proper sex education because people think, oh well they're not gonna have sex because they're disabled.

Chase:     Wow that's terrible. I didn't even think about that piece.

Courn:     It's a really big lack of education. I think something I've learned getting into disabled spaces with a lot of people like, that there's just a very lack of information and there's so many great people that are like doing that work and putting information out there like there's so many different aids and tools you can use as a disabled person to make intimacy work for you that most people wouldn't know about unless someone told you. So.

Chase:     Like what? What kind of tools?

Courn:     I mean there's different like chairs, and think about like straps and toys and stuff that make it hard like if you have mobility impairments and stuff like that.

Chase:     Yeah for sure.

Courn:     Yeah so there's a lot of stuff that you wouldn't believe. I very quickly went down a rabbit hole Yeah, googling different stuff. I think my search history is cooked now.

Chase:     The CIA is like, oh boy!

Courn:     I'm 10 phases in. I'm just like, oh, like sex swing chair for disabled people. Because I just was like, oh, this is really interesting.

Chase:     Yeah. Well, I never I mean, I think all of the like toys and tools and things you would think is more of like a BDSM approach, but actually it's like more could be even just an accessibility for disabled folks.

Courn:     Yeah. I mean, there's people whose genitalia is not working that way. You need to use toys and other stuff doesn't mean you can't experience pleasure in that way. So I don't know it's a very taboo thing people think that disabled people shouldn't have sex, okay, disabled people have very healthy sex lives ,it just looks different.

Chase:     Yeah absolutely.

Courn:     And I think autistic and ADHD people are no exception. I think it's interesting because I think, I don't know, ADHD people kind of get that rep of being like very hypersexual. And then I think autistic people get that rep of just being like, I don't know, having no sexual desire. And it's hard because I feel like I fit into that stereotype because I'm ace. So it's frustrating sometimes, but I know so many autistic people who are really about that and are hypersexual.

Chase:     My wife. And like having that mismatch, or like not mismatch, but like just add like a different maybe approach to it has been like freaking wild. You talked about like the male gaze. I've had to unpack that so much lately. I'm just like wow, I'm pretty sure all my experiences and how I like approach things was just like as a man, like going through a lot of these things and I was like why is this like not working now I'm in like women loving women relationships, where I'm just like oh, this is so different and like kind of not really, but like there's a lot of like reception and like, oh so once I realized that like all I had learned was from that I'm like, oh I gotta unpack all this and like relearn it. It was like almost really uncomfortable and like didn't, I didn't like get enjoyed at first and then yeah, okay talk to my partner like hey I think this is why I'm not enjoying this in the same way used to. Like can we try this or like this is bothering me or like whatever else and like? It still feels so weird to like have those conversations, especially not like growing up, not having sexual education. But then like, I also grew up in a cult that like shamed sex and like shamed all pro-sex. Like sex was just for-

Courn:     And that's not even adding in the gay element.

Chase:     Yeah, exactly.

Courn:     That just makes it so much more confusing, I think. Cause I didn't learn any, like, I don't know, queer friendly sex ed. So I'd learned from other queer people in adulthood, like, oh yeah, this is what you can do, it's not all about just you know penetration. And you’re like WHOA!

Chase:     Some people like never have penetrative sex and you freaking have the best life ever. I'm like wow, you've got so many options.

Courn:     Yeah, that you would just never know.

Chase:     Yeah, absolutely. But I think the theme like that we've talked about so far is that like just especially I think it's for more ADHD, I feel like struggles with this. I don't know about there's like some autistic overlap, but it's mostly ADHD of just how like our experience with sex and intimacy is just like not standard and we have to like learn how it works for us, which is almost like really difficult and challenging because there's just again not a lot of people talking about it or a lot of resources because everything is just like standard male-female penetration, like that's that's basically all the information you get. So I like how you said that, non-standard. Is that what you said? Non-standardized? What’s you say, I don't know, how'd you phrase it like, damn.

Courn:     I don't even remember.

Chase:     Shit, oh well. Yeah what was your point, what do you want to go into?

Courn:     Well, I'd say I agree. I definitely think that the problems that ADHD people are very face in, I think sex and intimacy are very unique. I think autistic people have different problems. I think there is some overlap mainly just because so many autistic people also have ADHD. I don't think it's because like I know those like labels necessarily like have a lot of interlapping traits. It's just because people have both. But I do think the thing that like, I think differs in autism and this comes up with people who have ADHD as well, if they have any like sensory issues. I think that's a big thing that comes up very early on. Like autistic people aren't less likely to want to have sex, but like how they experience it may be completely different and they may need accommodations. Like personally, I do not like physical touch. I don't like skin touching skin and I never have. And that's a very big element of intimacy. So I feel like that plays a big part, like not understanding like I think social cues and communication around sex, like not understanding like I don't know what is flirtatious bits, like I think this part always confused me like watching porn I couldn't really tell when people were like being fake or real, you're supposed to put on a show and I think that also ties back into the male gaze to of like, I don't know dirty talk that's just random and I'm like, I don't understand why you say this.

Chase:     Well, like so much of sex you see in media is just like unspoken. It's like just understood. And like, how else do you learn those things if they're never like verbally taught to you? If you just have to look and see, like that's so hard to learn. And then let alone if you're like don't learn that way anyways like, what now it just doesn't make any sense now I'm more lost.

Courn:     Correct, and I think this leads to like a lot of autistic and ADHD people too having like really weird first experiences with sex being very uncomfortable and awkward and I definitely think that sets like a precedent of like, I don't know, sexual trauma and stuff. I'm just like not feeling like you can have pleasure in those ways, not feeling like that's for you. Yeah but it definitely doesn't help because I feel like media is always just like yeah autistic people don't have relationships they don't have sex they can't be in love like.

Chase:     That is so wild to me.

Courn:     But like, that's the, that's what we get. I mean, it's mainly just like the male portrayal of autistic boys has always just been like, oh, they can't keep a relationship, they don't, maybe they do have sexual desire, but like, oh, they're too disabled to, you know, to be able to act on it and be able to understand consent which isn't true.

Chase:     Who is saying that?

Courn:     People on all parts of the spectrum can understand consent. Like with anything it's just a lot of communication. So.

Chase:    Yeah I like what you brought up about sensory because yeah, I definitely didn't realize I had some sensory discomforts until much later. And then I was like, why am I getting so stressed out? And then, have to unpack all that for sure.

Courn:     And a lot of that's just like a communication aspect. I think a lot of people suffer in silence in sex and other intimate relations because they just don't want to say something. And so you immediately are just like, oh, this isn't for me, but maybe there's accommodations you can do to make it better, you know? Yeah, I get it. Sex is a very overwhelming sensory thing.

Chase:     It is a lot of sensory.

Courn:     A lot of feelings and touch that a lot of autistic people do not like. So I get it.

Chase:     That's fair. This is why you never hug me. Never hug me goodbye.

Courn:     I mean it is a fact, I hate hugs. I hate touching other people. So it's just been like a weird thing to me, mainly because I just, I don't understand touching people. It makes me feel weird.

Chase:     That’s fine!

Courn:     yeah, no hate to people. But if someone asks me for a hug, I'll do it.

Chase:     Yeah. But it's obligatory. And we don't want obligatory hugs.

Courn:     It's going to be like that one guy that's like, give me a hug on the last day of school, he's like come on just give me a hug! Yeah, that's why I don't give hugs because you know who you are!

Chase:     That one guy! Oh you listen to this you know, cringe. I'm just so so shocked that there are people in this world like telling the world, oh these people don't experience this when you're not even in that part of the community who experiences that. Are you kidding me?

Courn:     Correct.

Chase:     That's just I cannot relate and like that might just because I'm not an asshole, but like, what there's people out here just being like oh, they can't do that!

Courn:     It's more just like I think people presume incompetence when you are disabled and I think that's for a variety of factors. like someone assumes okay if you have a caretaker that assists you with the bathroom or daily tasks that you're unable of like, I don't know, having thoughts or being, I don't know, of like communicating.

Chase:     You're just like a baked potato. That's not all the case.

Courn:     Or people just assume, you know, like, oh, because you can't speak or communicate verbally, that you don't have anything to say.

Chase:     It's like an all or nothing mindset.

Courn:     Yeah, so people just presume incompetence for most disabled people because they're just like, oh if you can't use the bathroom then you can't have sex and it's like okay, just because you need assistance with certain tasks you may also need assistance with sex too. Which there is people that help with stuff like that. So.

Chase:     Like a therapist or an assistant or an aid?

Courn:     Yeah! Oh, yeah, I mean there's like sexual aids that help disabled people like have sex, like there’s sex workers who specialize in disabled people because you know disabled people deserve to be able to have intimacy when they want it.

Chase:     That's wow, okay, no wonder the Republicans are like we got shut this shit down. Wow.

Courn:     But there's just like a lot of, umm.

Chase:     I’m learning so much today!

Courn:     What's that word? What's that word when you think someone's a child? Oh, what's that word?

Chase:     Infantilizing.

Courn:     There we go.

Chase:     Woo.

Courn:     Yeah. Infantilizing is a big thing too with autistic people. Just assuming that, I don't know. We just perceive people of having sensory issues of having meltdowns of having trouble communicating, meaning that they have the emotional capacity of a child when that usually isn't true. These problems affect all autistic people. It doesn't mean they're incapable of having, you know, grown-up emotions. So I think a lot of that comes down to that people assume like, oh, well, if you need a caretaker, then you're not, you know, capable of having an adult relationship. You're not capable of doing other adult things. People assume everything is at the same level when we experience multitudes of like abilities and what we're able to do. So yeah.

Chase:     It's like the spectrum, but like not the linear one, it's like the circle one, right where it's like there's so many different like it's like a sphere I think of it too not just like a flat circle It's like all these different dimensions of it.

Courn:     I think there's a lot of unspoken criteria that people have like, oh if you're able to have sex then that means you need to be able to consent verbally, which I'm like there's so many ways to consent that aren't verbally. We know that. Like you need to be able to live independently. It's all these unspoken things that are just like, oh if you can do that, you can have sex and just like it's not really like that, that's super ableist. It's not fair.

Chase:     Yeah, but wow, oh, did I ever tell you about the, we call it the Buffalo Wild Wing sex chart.

Courn:     What?!

Chase:     So one of the things, cause again when we like my wife and I were first dating, like there's always like the new person excitement of like, oh so easy have sex but then as you get like closer and like more secure we found it like more and more difficult but we both were like wait what the heck this doesn't align with anything. And so to like sometimes we well, when I was first talking about sex and like we went to a therapist like I felt really uncomfortable talking and so talking, even just saying the words like penis, vagina, or like anything like that I'd like squirm in my chair and like like therapists would be like, oh say orgasm. Uhhh. Like saying orgasm was so weird. And so we just created like a little chart of like little things that like what it meant to like, to kind of like proceed to each step. And so rather than like saying like, oh, I want to try this or do that.

Courn:     I want a buffalo wild wing.

Chase:     Yeah! We thought about the little wing, you know the sauce chart where it's like it's mild and spicy so it gets more spicy as it goes off the charts. We had this little chart that we'd like write stuff down of like oh, like I'm feeling this like can we try this I'd be open to this, but like can we start here and like that to like just be like so I didn't have to say it. So I was like, well, I don't want the not saying to be like a barrier, but like, here's a way to like work around. So that was like almost a way of like doing non-verbal traditional consent.

Courn:     I kind of love that.

Chase:     Yeah, we made it work.

Courn:     That's cute with the buffalo. *laughs*

Chase:     Yeah, and that's what we laughed about it. So like, that was one thing. It's just like learning to have fun with it too.

Courn:     Yeah. I mean that's just an example of good communication.

Chase:     I try.

Courn:     When you have problems, you talk about them.

Chase:     Yeah. Or like even just when things are not working and you're like, well, I'm expecting to go this way. I'm hoping to go this way and it's not like, yeah, we need to sit down and maybe reflect back of like, okay, why is it not working? What is, what's my body telling me? What is, what is my brain trying to say?What's the narrative around this? Cause then we can start to unpack where this is coming from. That's what's helped us at least.

Courn:     Yeah. I would agree. I mean, I think there's definitely been similar challenges. Like my partner is not like self, self labeling that they're on the ace spectrum. They're obviously with an ace person and I think that leads to a lot of invasive questions of people being like do you guys have sex? Yeah, and like I don't feel I'm comfortable answering those questions but like full transparency ace people do have sex for different reasons. Some ace people actually enjoy sex but they just don't feel the need to do it. Sometimes they don't like it at all but physically need to release so like they need to do that stuff. But I do think it's a conversation that people have to have. I mean, if you're willing to be with someone, like you have to meet somewhere in the middle. And I think that's a hard concept to grasp. And I think even adding the intersectionality of like being an autistic person, I think there's a lot of like forced rigidity where people are like, oh, I'm incapable of doing this. And certain things you are, you know, you definitely are, but it's like there's definitely places I think you could make compromises. Like, I don't think it's fair for me to be like, oh, with a partner of certain years and be like, I am not willing to meet you anywhere. I'm not going to engage in any intimacy with you, whatever that looks like, you know, like those, that communication has to be done.

Chase:     Yeah. Well, I guess you can, even just talking to more ace people and like, it didn't like, it didn't connect in my brain that like sex is the general term, but there's like obviously sex with another person, there's like self sex and just solo. And then there's a group and like there's all these different levels and so each person could essentially have one thing without the other, it's not like an all-or-nothing deal, which I thought it was I was like that's kind of how I was raised it's like oh if you want to have sex and you have all these things and it could be the opposite of that.

Courn:     Yeah. I think it also was a big discovery for me realizing later in life, like how much I think broader a spectrum intimacy is with a partner too. Like, I think there's so much like hyper-focus on just like sex as being this big performative act that everyone should be doing with their partner every day. And that's the hallmark of your relationship. That's what makes a partner versus a friend, you know, like it's because you just have this raging libido for them all the time. And like, as an ace person, I never really had that. So it was really hard for me to differentiate, what was a romantic relationship. And I still think it's hard for me to differentiate but I know my partner is my person. I love them in all these ways. But yeah, I just also don't think that there has to be so much focus on sex too. If it matters to you, like make it important, but also if it doesn't, it doesn't have to be a big thing, like.

Chase:     Yeah we had that we, I mean we talked about that too with our therapist of just like what does it mean for us have sex what does that mean for the person to orgasm, what does that look like? And they'll go to these paths because you can have intimate moments that have no penetration and you can have intimate moments that involve some kind of penetration. And it could be, the penetration could look like different things, come from different things. And so realizing that it's not just 1 plus 1 equals 2, or just you have these 3 options, customize them as you want. It's like so many other little things that could go into that and like you said some people just don't want those and don't find joy in that. You talked about like partners and like maybe the, the expectation that like when you love someone you just want to have sex all the time, everywhere. every chance you get, like talking about like the gender stereotypes around that right and like not being in the binary or being in the binary with that and how there's like that pressure on the relationship like you said like, well if you love this person .like you're gonna you're gonna want a bone all the time every time everywhere and it's like if you can't then like you're not a good partner or like specifically right with men it's like oh, if you can't make your lady have a good you know, and it's like all those expectations and it's like once you start to dissect the the gender piece and then like don't subscribe to a lot of their, don't like identify with a lot of that, that changes your whole perspective on it. Definitely something I had to unpack too.

Courn:     Oh yeah. I think the first time I ever got with like a group of like semi acquaintances that were all like, they were all women and they all had like pretty serious partners that were all men. And they were just like talking about how often they have sex with their partners. And I thought it was very weird because I didn't know these people that well, besides like the very close friend.

Chase:     But they love talking about their sex life.

Courn:     Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know. That's just a weird thing. I think a lot of people do just like talk in depth about their sex life and I'm just like, okay, cool. And they're just like, yeah, we do it. We do it, you know, every Wednesday, every Friday. And I'm like,

Chase:     Oh, sure.

Courn:     I didn't ask for that, but go off, I guess. I'm not trying to not be sex positive, but I do think it's interesting.

Chase:     Difference in like sex positive versus just like in like a bragging way. Right. Like I feel like sometimes it's always in the lens of like bragging and comparing and trying to like one up each other and like very competitive versus just like, oh my gosh like, we had like this really great connection, this new way or like this is really special for us or blah blah I was just like it's like how many times can you come and like oh my god. How sore am I and like we're up- it's just like how tired like it's just like a-

Courn:     It does feel like it's a comparison yeah and it's always gonna be power and frequency, when it could be a affirming thing and I at least the people I've talked to that are like very overshare about their sex life it feels like a thing that if I shared mine and I have before in the past, they're like oh, that kind of sucks. Like oh you must not be as close. I'm like what do you mean, I'm with my best friend like yep I'm sorry that our most intimate moments is not something that I share with you, but-

Chase:     Or even like is in the same nature in which they have experienced their own sex.

Courn:     I'm like, my most intimate moment is like, I don't know, playing video games all day with my partner and us just getting so many inside jokes and laughing with each other and watching stupid videos at night and dancing around the house with our dogs. Like that is the most intimate I've ever felt with my partner. And that had nothing to do with sex. So.

Chase:     You ain't hitting that pound town, bro. You gotta break the ice.

Courn:     I just do things. I don't know. I feel like I just have so many friends who put so much emphasis on sexual compatibility and I think it's important, but also I'm like, they will stay with people. They're absolutely assholes. And like, I see some people that I'm like, do you even like your partner, do you like your spouse because it feels like aside from having sex with them, if they didn't offer that to you you would not be with them and I'm like unequivocally me my partner would be with each other if that was off the table in any capacity. So.

Chase:     Right. I find it all like I mean, that's a good point of like factoring in monogamous versus non-monogamous right, like that that changes completely how people have sex-

Courn:     We didn’t even get to that!

Chase:     And like both well I guess you guys are monogamous, I never actually asked, I assumed but I was like gonna ask.

Courn:     Do you think I have the capacity to be with people?

Chase:     I dont’ know that's, that's something I even directly asked you that's why I pause I was like wait a second.

Courn:     But it does seem like an intimate thing to ask someone.

Chase:     Is it?

Courn:     I don't know.

Chase:     Oh, shit. I didn't think it would be. I think because now I'm exposed to a lot more folks in the non-monogamous community, I'm just kind of like, oh, okay. It's like talked about a lot more. It's like the more you talk about it, the less taboo, hopefully.

Courn:     I think there's a lot of queer people too that are in the polyamorous community and that definitely like makes it more normalized, which is great. Nothing against that at all. It doesn't personally work for me. But.

Chase:     But like you said are you with someone just based on like the sexual experience and like sex you're having versus the actual like interest and emotional connection. Oh, we didn't even talk about the emotional connection piece. Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. And so like, yeah, who's to say you can't just have an emotional connection with someone, but like your agreement is to like not have any sex, But you're gonna have sex with other people. What does that look like? There's so many layers to it. Raising, being raised in a cult meant I didn't even know these were options.

Courn:     Yeah, you can customize everything!

Chase:     Literally! Back to the customization thing again.

Courn:     Yeah, every time we're like you really can customize your intimacy and sex life as long as you have partners that are willing to consent to that as well.

Chase:     I love that!

Courn:     It's not one-sided.

Chase:     Pick your intimacy!

Courn:     Yeah, I mean, that's how it should be. I don’t know.

Chase:     Yeah, what is it when you need an emotional connection with someone?

Courn:     Demisexual. Yeah and demisexual is under the ace umbrella.

Chase:     Right.

Courn:     So you can only have sex with an emotional connection.

Chase:     Yes, yeah and that's how my wife experienced it and then I do not. I could like no emotional connection. I'm like great. No vulnerability. Awesome. Let's go.

Courn:     And I've heard that from so many other like, I don't know, ADHD folks that are just like, oh yeah, they're like, oh I just love the novelty. It really doesn't matter about the person or the connection and that's something I don't resonate with because I'm just like, oh man, I feel like I have to have this big emotional connection and maybe that's just because of like how much sex is sensationalized too in media that I felt like it was this big thing.

Chase:     Yeah, but it really is sensationalized. That's a good way to put it.

Courn:     Yeah, but also just like as someone who doesn't really like sex, like I'm not gonna do it if I don't like that person.

Chase:     Well, yeah.

Courn:     So that's also my bias. I'm just like, I'm good.

Chase:     Yeah, that's fair. I didn't realize that like a lot of ADHD folks say the same thing about like non emotionally tied sex. I repeat, of yeah, it's like way easier and I think that's why part of like having sex before being in a serious committed monogamous relationship, I was just like oh, so easy, just like it's all performative, like let's go, right? Look at this and like that was a lot of it but then it was like oh I'm with someone who really does know me emotionally and like very vulnerable. And I was like, oh, maybe this is not something I'm ready for.

Courn:     A lot more vulnerable.

Chase:     Yeah. Or like my wife would make fun of me of like, I would do something and they would just be like, why did you do that? And I'd be like, well, don't you like that? And they're like, no, no, this is not for me. No. Do you like it? And I was like, I mean, don't you like it? And they're like, okay, pause. If you don't like it, don't do it. And I was like, but like, this is for you. And, and like, it just happened.

Courn:     Not for me!

Chase:     Yeah. That like breaking of my brain. I was like, oh, this is a thing where we both enjoy together in some way, oh okay, so the emotional piece was definitely a hiccup and like a challenge learning, learning now emotional connections of vulnerability.

Courn:     It's a lot.

Chase:     Boo boo! Just kidding.

Courn:     Toxic, no feelings here!

Chase:     Numb that shit!

Courn:     We're not those snowflakes, we don't talk about feelings!

Chase:     Come here!

Courn:     Yeah it's not weak to be vulnerable and talk about things.

Chase:     Yeah, no we're talking about it now. Also I didn't learn about consent until way too late in life. Can we just talk about that for a bit? That might be the cult. I don't know if that's like a lot of layers with the other identities.

Courn:     Yeah. Enthusiastic consent.

Chase:     Enthusiastic consent!

Courn:     I thought that didn't come up maybe till I was like, actually I think we watched a video on like later high school. And I think it's just because my teacher was like really rah rah about sex ed.

Chase:     That's nice.

Courn:     But I do think it's interesting. I think this goes with consent. I feel like I've just been seeing this recent trend and I think it's a result of not really having consent education when people are younger, but so many women fantasize about like sexual assault scenarios. And all of the books that are really popular right now, like they just like have sexual assault in them. And then those people end up with the people who sexually assaulted them. And I have so many friends and acquaintances who love those books. And I'm always just like, you know, you read whatever you want to read, but like, I'm concerned for you. Like, I know, you know, that's not healthy, but like, there's so many people have this scenario of like being sexually assaulted. And I think that literally manifests into so many like porn genres into so many like, I don't know, fantasies that people have that they think that you know men need to like take over them in the bedroom and like you need to be like oh no, I don't like this or like-

Chase:     Because that's all-

Courn:     Passed out girl at the party fantasy, I know so many people who like that. And I think it plays into all this lack of consent education and it's fantasized.

Chase:     Yeah. Rather than talking about the consent that can happen around essentially like consent, non-consent situations. It's actually just sexual assault.

Courn:     Yes.

Chase:     And there's a very different, that's also 2 very different things. Like sexual assault and consent non-consent is completely 2 different. Yeah. Okay. I didn't even think about that.

Chase:     Oh damn.

Courn:     Yeah. But I mean if you don't get consent it can turn to sexual assault so, but I think people have a trouble differentiating that like, I don't know, it like I'm just saying someone doesn't give you enthusiastic consent.

Chase:     They think they're the same thing, essentially rather than a situation where like I want to fight you on this even though like the consent is there but like it's kind of playing out the no consent. Like that is a very different scenario. Do you get?

Courn:     Oh for sure.

Chase:     Yeah, versus like you said but you people kind of confuse it for the same thing.

Courn:     I definitely think there's role plays where I think people get rid of consent as part of it. And you're giving consent to that role play. And I think that's different.

Chase:     You're like sign here to consent and you're like cool.

Courn:     Yeah. But I also just think that is a symptom of society that is like, I don't know, a little questionable when people are fantasizing about being sexually assaulted. As someone who's been sexually assaulted, I'm like, that's a very weird thing to fantasize about.

Chase:     I agree.

Courn:     And I'm like, y'all do what you want to do but that one is just really big taboo for me and I will not read books romance books that are labeled dark romances that just have sexual assault. And like I don't know gray all these lines of consent.

Chase:     Yeah, no, that's never something I resonate with.

Courn:     No, I just think it's a red flag. Anytime a girl tells me that's her favorite book, I'm like...

Chase:     Of all the books, that's the favorite? You couldn't have other favorites? That's the like one?

Courn:     Or like stalking scenarios too? Like there's that...

Chase:     I feel like those people have never... do you think those people have actually been stalked?

Courn:     No!

Chase:     See that's the difference.

Courn:     I don't think so, I think the majority of them have not and it just also here's the disclaimer it's only hot if someone assaults you or stalks you if they're hot. They have to be a hot guy and that's the thing. All these guys in the movies...

Chase:     Oooh, it’s never the disabled person stalking!

Courn:     I'm just saying, you even think about 50 Shades of Grey, there's a lot of weird consent things where he is actually stalking her.

Chase:     But it's excused because he's an attractive or like you know considered an attractive person.

Courn:     Yes!

Chase:     Oh wow, that's a good point. Like attractive people get away with more things.

Courn:     Yeah. I think at least from the media presentation, that's the vibe I get from media telling you that it's okay if consent is a little bit weird if they're hot and you would have said yes potentially because they're really attractive and I think that's why you see so many people like fantasizing over I don't know, like serial killer shows because they asked a hot actor to play them and then you're like oh yeah, Evan Peters looks so hot. What are you talking about? That is so insane, he's playing a serial killer, like stop. I think people get away with things if they're like hot.

Chase:     That is hot privilege. Evan Peters, Let me see. Oh God. He's, they think he's attractive?

Courn:     He's cute. He's cute in a rat boy, but my hot take is also that the rat boy aesthetic, that's not a cute photo. In front of an American flag, unhinged. The rat boy aesthetic is just skinny white boys.

Chase:     Ewww.

Courn:     That's him when he's like real young.

Chase:     Okay. These are all the photos of him. It's like long hair. This is true. I've heard about the rat boy thing. I don't understand that. But that's-

Courn:     Timothée Chalamet, rat boy. But when I look at what defines a rat boy, it seemed to only be white.

Chase:     White! Jinx.

Courn:     And that was the problem. Because like the guy from challengers, also rat boy, like someone was trying to tell me who qualified to be a rat boy and I was like so they don't have melanin, like?

Chase:     They got a couple…what is it when you're like you can't be within like, a restraining order? Like a couple restraining orders? They're white and they got a couple restraining orders against them. Eww. I don't like that. Okay, well back to the third topic. Third topic. *laughs*

Courn:     *laughs* Rat boys!

Chase:     Gosh. You kind of touched on this like in the queer episode and we've always kind of talked about this but for you, how did the conversation go with your partner when you realized your ace? Like talk about that a little bit and like how that maybe impacted things, did it change anything, was there a period of like maybe like hurt or like any like disconnection and then had to like reconnect or anything like that?

Courn:     I mean, I don't even remember having like a big formal conversation because I think it was just very obvious. And I think we both knew something was up because I just had a lot of like sexual dysfunction and dissatisfaction. So I think it came out very naturally. I think I remember reading about ace and then I showed my partner, I was like, this kind of sounds like me. And that was kind of how the conversation went. And we went past that. I mean, we had hurdles and stuff like, okay, well, I think I was just like expressing my boundaries. I actually don't like doing this. I only do this because I think I'm supposed to do this and this is actually something that I wouldn't mind doing. Here's something I would like to do with you. Like it was a big communication thing. I think it's an ongoing thing as well. I didn't have a big conversation. I think that's kind of a privilege in that I think we both were kind of aligned.

Chase:     Just kind of like, yeah, sure. This? Yeah. Okay, sure.

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:     That's it.

Courn:     Yeah. Also, I think my partner didn't really know what it meant to be ace either. So I think that helped a lot. Cause I think like, as I was telling them about it, like there was a lot of education piece, where I was telling them like, oh, you know, well some people still experience sexual attraction. Like this is where I'm at and things like that so yeah, a lot of communication is what I keep finding all these things come down to but it definitely was like, I don't know, something I hyped up in my head for a while, there was just like oh like is it gonna be a big deal but based on our activities and how our connection was, I just was like oh, it's it's not gonna be a big deal.

Chase:     Are you sure you don't love him? You haven't been banging every day. You probably don't love him.

Courn:     I already said this in the other episode, but someone literally asked if we were getting divorced when I came out as an ace. And I was like, you couldn't fathom the idea that, first of all, I didn't tell you what my sexual life is but yeah we were never gonna have sex again, obviously he could not stand to be with me, that would just be absolutely horrid because men only want one thing!

Chase:     That's right!

Courn:     Absolutely insane so.

Chase:     I was gonna say that bussy but-

Courn:     I was trying to think of something more unhinged to say what are they like guns, trucks!

Chase:     Not titties.

Courn:     They do.

Chase:     Chop, chop. Chop Suey. I'm going to start calling you Chop Suey

Courn:     Okay, that's a double. That's a racial slur.

Chase:     Yeah, we can’t do that.

Courn:     Also chicken chop suey was my least favorite dish at school.

Chase:     It's not good.

Courn:     It looked so fucking gross. And I'm not gonna put that on all chicken chop suey.

Chase:     No for sure.

Courn:     But the one at our high school, at our very small lunch program, actually looked like something I would find in the bathroom. Did not taste good either. Actually all the food looked like that. That's not exclusive to Asian dishes. That was every dish there.

Chase:     Yeah, school cafeteria food is not good in America. .

Courn:     We don't discriminate. We're not going to be chicken chop suey haters. Those hamburgers were nasty.

Chase:     I can't call you chop suey after you get top surgery? Chop chop.

Courn:     If someone was allowed to it would be you, but.

Chase:     Do you think anything will change for you once you have top surgery? Any desires? Do you think it's an open road? Do you think it's a closed book once you have a little more like just affirmation in your own body?

Courn:     I don't know. I think from like a body modification perspective, I have no idea. I've always thought the idea of a hysterectomy being enticing, but it's also a lot of work. I found out that like you can't lift something above 5 pounds for like almost a year after getting a hysterectomy, but apparently the healing is very quick.

Chase:     I'm pretty sure my mom was back to work in like 6 weeks after.

Courn:     Yeah. So I don't know. That's also what the therapist told me. So, but I'm also, that seems a lot more invasive and kind of scary, but I mean, I'm not trying to get like different anatomy. I just wanted my boobs removed.

Chase:     Just a chop chop.

Courn:     Yeah. I was just, I'm just excited to wear like clothes that make me feel good. I feel like I've hated wearing tank tops for so long. I'm like, I'm trying to get out of my comfort zone. I'm wearing a tank top right now.

Chase:     You are, I'm proud of you.

Courn:     Because I just hated showing cleavage and things. And I'm like, oh man, this would look so good if I was flat there with like a mock neck tank. Oh, it looks so good. I could wear little dresses again too. Like I just can't wear so many clothes because of having large boobs.

Chase:     You don't wear dresses? You wear dress all the time.

Courn:     Not in public.

Chase:     Skirts?

Courn:     I don't wear skirts ever. I hate skirts. I have a few dresses.

Chase:     It's the flowy pants that's throwing me. Maybe it's the flowy pants.

Courn:     I do wear a lot of flowy pants, but dresses always are kind of a mixed bag for me.

Chase:     The fitting on a dress is so complex.

Courn:     I just feel like the top never fits how I want to. So I only have like 5 dresses. I really just wear them for fancy occasions on Instagram videos.

Chase:     Oh, see, that's what it is. I was like I'm pretty sure I just saw you in a video.

Courn:     But like I would never wear one out. I'm like that's not my gender euphoria.

Chase:     Suits. Those like flowy pant suits.

Courn:     I don't like suits on me.

Chase:     I bet you'd look banging in a suit.

Courn:     I just feel like also maybe that's just like a gender dysphoria thing where I'm just like I don't like how suits sit on my body. Maybe if my chest is flat I would like it because just everything buttoned up up top is not.

Chase:     I say the button up with the at the neckline is a it's a time.

Courn:     Yeah but also a sensory nightmare for autistic people but-

Chase:     I did wear a tie for the first time in my life recently and it was a time.

Courn:     Yeah, I was like you know maybe the boys aren't being so dramatic my partner's always been like, I hate ties!!!

Chase:     oh no I feel like ties suck, like I don't know I've never been like you're just being a baby, ties are. That's something.

Courn:     Yeah, they were not good.

Chase:     It's not like me being like tied up and choked on bed. That's different. That's different different. Okay, also, it's a hot woman doing it, or not a woman even, oh my goodness, me misgendering my own wife, Jesus Christ, a hot person. A hot person doing it. Okay, well on that note, let's go get some new clothes. I don't know, do you need new clothes? Wanna go shopping? You like shopping.

Courn:     I love clothes, that's my special interest. Let's go!

Chase:     Let's go.

Chase:     Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So, if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!