Episode 14: Gender: a performance (part 2)
Chase: Welcome to Neurotakes, I'm Chase.
Courn: This is Courn!
Chase: Let's get into it! Because then also how often do you find, this is just like an open question, like men who now transitioned to being like a woman and like carry over so much of the like toxicity and like don't actually understand the space they take up being perceived by the world as a woman and like what that comes with you know? Did I say that right? Do you know what I'm getting at?
Courn: I think so. So you're saying that yes, if you like transition to your true gender, which could be potentially from male to female and you pass, which you don't have to pass, but when you do, you start experiencing a lot of misogyny. I think I've heard less from that side. I think I've heard a lot of like people who've transitioned from female to their true gender male and suddenly realizing all the privileges that they get, like people just respect them more in spaces, like your voice just carries more weight, of course it goes the opposite way as well! Yeah, but it can be a really shitty thing to be a woman in this society.
Chase: I didn't even think about how much, yeah, how much people do not want to like be labeled as a woman and almost like away from that, whether that's like an influence, a factor, not a factor, who knows? I can't speak for all of y'all but that's so wild.
Courn: I mean, I, a hotter take that I feel like a fear of trans women has always been rooted in misogyny. It's always been like the idea of a man, quote on quote, “a man”, not a man, dressing up as a woman could be the grossest thing. I think that's why we hate gay men so much too as a society, that it's very like, oh, if you're being flamboyant, you're being feminine. And that's looked down upon. Whereas I feel like, I don't know. I feel like gay women, like obviously they have a lot of shit against them too, but it feels like there's less societal pushback on like just existing. Like no one's like you're, you know-
Chase: Or women who also are very masculine presenting, it’s praised!
Courn: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Chase: Yeah, absolutely.
Courn: It's not, I feel like it's not as much of like a making fun of thing. I feel like we've seen a lot of like butch women, like masc women, like in media and it's not always making fun of them and I-
Chase: It’s started to become praised!
Courn: Yeah, it hasn't been the same I feel like for gay men, for trans women, it's very much just like idea that if you're acting or portraying feminine traits, you're less than but if you're trying to act like a dude it's like oh, like yeah that’s cool!
Chase: Yeah! For sure!
Courn: You know the butch girls, like they're cool they're one of the guys, but it's just like oh, you know girls aren't going, oh trans women are one of the girls, they're not doing that, they're being so exclusionary! So.
Chase: That's a great point, wow, I didn't think we'd go into that but like yeah, learning so much!
Courn: I didn’t think so either!
Chase: That's awesome, no, that's such a, I don't know, that's like, that's a great point. And like how much that could actually change if the patriarchy didn't exist.
Courn: Yeah. I just think people don't realize how much the patriarchy like affects gender roles, how much it affects sexuality, how we perceive and both how we're affected by gender and how we experience in our society, like those all have an impact whether we want it to or not.
Chase: Well and I mean look at the reaction with like gender reveal parties.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Right? Like how some people get like really really really over the top with that reaction and you can just see the like anger that-
Courn: Why is every other a video dad just like, MMMM!
Chase: Like grumpy about it being pink!
Courn: Arms crossed in the corner. Like I don't want a girl, I want a boy who will hit baseball with me and go on dirt bikes. Like I just, it's so unhinged. Also the adjectives that they use on those cakes, whatever it's like, tiaras or tanks. Like-
Chase: Feral.
Courn: Guns or flowers. You're like what?
Chase: Ewwww! That's disgusting. I just I don't know. Like I get kind of, I don't want kids, so I don't know that I'm like the best person to be talking about this. I just don't get like what the big deal is about a gender reveal party and like that's obviously coming from queer space but like, because so much of it can change and like you could be excited to just like have a kid and be like, oh my gosh, it's this or that, but even then it's just like, like almost like what does it matter? So much that could change, whatever that human grows up to be might not resonate with anything. It might resonate with all of it. It might resonate with pieces of it. So like it's very like centering the parent I feel like when they do stuff like that.
Courn: It is and it's like I get that you're excited about having a baby. I think there's proper ways. I mean, I don't think every single person needs to do like non-gendered parenting. I think that's great for some people. I don't think it works for everyone. I think you can just be open to being like, oh yeah, you know, you were assigned a boy because that's the society we live in, but if you ever feel like that doesn't resonate, like if you ever feel like your name does not resonate, like let us know. Like you don't have to you know, like only use they/them pronouns for your kid. I think that's what like conservatives are scared of, so what do you want instead, you want you know our babies just to be-
Chase: Neutral?!
Courn: Yeah, gender neutral babies! Are you gonna give them hormones and pump them full of stuff? It's like no, no, no, no, no, no!
Chase: No one said that buddy. You said that.
Courn: No, the fascination that I feel like conservatives have with like gender-affirming health care for kids-
Chase: And children's genitalia in that regard.
Courn: Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, they're gonna cut off their dick. You know, at age 9?!
Chase: Why is that always an argument? Like drag queens are over here. What if my son sees that now wants to cut off his penis? And I'm like, what the, what the fuck?
Courn: If that's all it takes for you to cut off your genitalia. But it's always, it's always so much like that. It's always straight to the sex organs. It's never just like what it means to like socially transition. Like I'm not trying to get into the logistics of like gender-affirming health care, but yeah most of the stuff for underage kids like the worst you can do, not the worst, but the most I think intense-
Chase: Permanent?
Courn: Would be like hormone blockers. Which if you stop taking them, you will go through puberty again. So it's not a permanent thing.
Chase: What a fragile place to be that that's all it takes to just take you down.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: My wife and I definitely talked about that because from the jump, we were both like, we do not want kids. Cool? Cool. Just like you know, and that was something we were like, are you sure that's not something we're gonna change our minds about? But, we did have that talk of like if we had kids like hypothetically, what would we do? Or kind of like walk us like just having conversation to connect. And so we actually talked about that of like raising, would we raise our kid with pronouns assigned at birth? Like would you go with a non-binary route? Like what would we do? Did you ever talk about that with your partner?
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Because I know you're doing some family planning for a hot sec.
Courn: Yeah, I feel like we haven't talked in depth about it. I feel like honestly he's kind of cool with anything, because that's just the type of person he is, which is why I love him. But yeah, I think I've had my own thoughts where I'm just like, oh yeah, I felt like, oh, maybe we should raise them non-binary. And then I think about all the societal challenges that comes with and I'm like, oh, that just seems really hard to explain. And I think looking back at my own journey, like, I don't know if I would have identified with they/them as a kid or if it mattered that much to me at that age. I think language mattered less. I think it's more of an adult thing. But I just think about what a world of difference it would have meant if just my parents, you know, had verbally told me or just give me the room to be like, oh, this is what we assigned you with. This is what society assigned you with, but like you can outgrow this, you can change, like I think to me that matters more.
Chase: Yeah, it would support creativity of the kid and expression and like exploration of identity.
Courn: Yeah and that goes with like sexuality and other things too, like just not assuming that you know you're male, female, everything's binary, you're whatever, you're cis, you're straight, like that has to be the default.
Chase: You were born with these parts, so it's gonna be labeled as this, but like you get to be whatever the fuck you want.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: You can take on certain roles, you can take on other parts of certain roles, you can be two things at once, you can be whatever you want!
Courn: Yeah, but I also think no matter what you think about like, oh, what I would do when I was parenting. I think if I've learned anything from seeing other people parent, like you don't know what's gonna happen!
Chase: Correct!
Courn: You don't know how your child's gonna present and I think things change. Like if your child at a young age is telling you, mom, I, you know, I'm not a girl. Like, who are you to be like, no, you’re…
Chase: You're this, you're that.
Courn: Yeah. So I'm just like, I don't know. Kids are so unique. People are so unique. Like, I think it's hard to have a hard and fast plan of like what you're going to do because like they're a whole ass person, they're gonna figure it out.
Chase: Yeah, I think it's those conversations like all the what-ifs or what about this, and like getting to know people's thought process that we like to like and I like to do and just especially like on like long car trips, right? Where you're kind of just like, really going on tangents and then kind of like deep diving certain things, so that's interesting! So you're not gonna have a bunch of they/them babies?
Courn: Probably not.
Chase: A bunch of they/them Courns running around.
Courn: Just like, you know, that I just think it would give them a hard time and if it doesn't matter to them. I'm like, language is supposed to empower us, so they should use what resonates.
Chase: Yeah, somehow the labels that we all use also like kind of corners everything and cuts things off. It's wild. As much as it helps like create understanding and like some identity and like that can empower you a lot of things, it can also like limit so much creativity. It's kind of wild!
Courn: For sure!
Chase: Double-edged sword.
Courn: I get why people, I feel like I met a lot of people that just like, like to say they're queer or they're just non-gender conforming and I totally get it! Because it just feels like all these labels.
Chase: Vague.
Courn: Yeah, they get really specific and they get like, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily the labels themselves, but like what the stereotypes that come with it based on other people like, oh, if you're ace you do this, you're non-binary, you look like this, and it's just a very like small idea of what it means to be those things, which isn't really what they're about, but the society aspect is so huge. Just like how people see you can matter to a lot of people. So.
Chase: Well, especially if you start to understand like gender being like a very like fluid thing, I think that really starts to change and open your mind to a lot more stuff and like it can be fluid based on context. Do you feel like you've done gender differently throughout your life and across different situations, specifically in your like non-binary like lens and identity especially you know being socialized and raised one way and then that changing as you get to be an adult?
Courn: Yeah, I mean definitely. I think I just presented as very hyper femme and I don't know if, I guess that was my gender at the time, was just being a woman.
Chase: So society told you your gender was.
Courn: Yeah, I just wanted to latch into it. It felt compulsory. Like it felt like, oh, I didn't want to be a man. So what was the other choice? Just very much lean into being a woman and maybe then people will like me and then I will like presenting as a woman.
Chase: Jokes on you. Society hates women.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: That was not the gender to choose. I'm just kidding.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: I'm just kidding.
Courn: No, it's true though. And then I feel like as I've become an adult, it's not like I chose to be non-binary. I just felt like I was aligning with what was myself. But I think through that process, I think there's some things like, I think I had this kind of like panic where I was like, oh, do I need to look more androgynous to be non-binary? And that was an unlearning process that I don't need to look that way. I still am very femme presenting. But it's just like, oh, I still don't really like wearing dresses that much. I don't like wearing heavy makeup. I have short hair. I have a mullet. Like I think there's different things that I think outwardly that makes me feel more non-binary, but it's like how much of that is what is a preconceived notion of like what it means to be a gender. So it's hard for me, like I can't really track like, oh yeah I was more of a woman growing up. I just don't feel like anything. I've never really identified with gender and I think that's I mean that's literally being agender, which probably is more of like my true gender identity than non-binary but no one knows what the word agender is, because it's under like the larger like non-binary genderqueer umbrella. Like you can be gender fluid, you can be gender non-conforming, agender, like there's a lot of specific terms. So yeah, that's a lot.
Chase: No, no, that's awesome. That's wild, because I mean the argument is that gender is not essentially natural, when you think about it being a more performative thing, not just like the identity, like it's only the identity because of the performance. And so it's not necessarily something that's like, you're born with naturally, intrinsically, it just like becomes these things. So like you said, if you were always told to do these things because that is what then you are to become by doing those things, are you really that thing? It's getting real meta in here today.
Courn: Kind of though. I don't know. I just feel-
Chase: Like that's what all gender is in my opinion. Like as we learn about it, really unpack it, it's all really meta and it's all just kind of like made up and on a-
Courn: Oh, for sure.
Chase: In a way.
Courn: And I feel like too, as I've started like unmasking my autism and stuff, it feels like it's gone hand in hand, where it feels like I'm unmasking a lot of like female performance too I used to put on of like crossing my legs, and like walking a specific way. Like I wanted to look feminine and now I'm just like oh I just walk kind of dorky, and I look dorky.
Chase: Do you sit like a gay?
Courn: What, like spread out or weird positions?
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: I sit like a hyper hyper mobile person so I sit in really weird positions with my legs and like cross-legged and stuff but-
Chase: That's about it.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: That's fair. Do you think those structures of control would exist without gender? Do they-
Courn: Maybe not, but we'd probably find something else which we have. That's the thing. See, if it's not gender, then it's something else.
Chase: Go off, go off.
Courn: So if we were all whatever, one gender people, I don't know what that would be if we could like asexually reproduce or we all can do things. I don't know. But there's got to be something. There's always something because like then it comes to like race.
Chase: Mm-hmm.
Courn: Like, that's how we get racial differences. Oh, it comes to like body size. Like there's always something. Like I feel like if you just kept dividing it, making people more and more similar, then it'd be like oh, your eyes are a little too big, so we don't respect you as much. I think humans are really good at finding differences in each other and then building a whole personality and society off of exploiting those.
Chase: Those differences?
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Rather than find the commonalities and like powering through that and including those.
Courn: I'm like historically, that's what it looks like cause even in very like what you would consider homogeneous populations on the earth there was so much conflict over appearances and things that seem very trivial, cause I'm like I don't know, we're not starting wars over like blonde hair and shit like that anymore. But we did, not even that long ago. So.
Chase: How is it that we always bring up Germany and Nazis somehow in our episodes?
Courn: It comes up every time because it's all, it's all interconnected.
Chase: Always somehow bringing up Germany, Nazis, something!
Courn: Yeah! Because they need constant education, so.
Chase: Never forget.
Courn: Because we're literally, we literally do the same shit over and over again. It's just a little bit more covert, but...
Chase: That is correct.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Ultimately, you think they would not exist, but something else would take its place.
Courn: Yeah, there's always going to be something. And maybe that's just the pessimist in me, but I'm like, if it wasn't gender, it’d be something else.
Chase: That's absolutely fair. Did we even talk about how the sex assigned of birth is completely binary, thus it like absolutely excludes all of the intersex and in between?
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Gosh, we didn't even really touch on that. Granted, we are not two intersex humans, so I don't want to broach too much-
Courn: No I don’t want to-
Chase: But just the thought of that is so wild.
Courn: And I've read so many first-hand accounts from people talking about how they had non-consensual surgeries to make them more biologically female or male as a child, then how many problems that's caused not only with sexual dysfunction, but physical dysfunction of their body and making them disabled in ways and presenting with gender that they didn't agree with. Like that is so normalized, just like non-consensual surgery.
Chase: It's also just not talked about at all and so I feel like we should talk about it more and more.
Courn: Yeah, it's like intersex people are a lot more common than you would think. Actually a lot of people don't know they're intersex until you go and get genetic testing done because like-
Chase: Woah, yeah?
Courn: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of stuff in your DNA that there's abnormalities in everything.
Chase: Of course, of course. And so now we've made the essentially like, I don't know, what is like the more rare thing, like the more common thing. It's kind of flipped in a way. If you think about it. Like, I don't know how common it is. You probably know the statistic, but I just, I don't know. It resonated with me the other day while I was like putting down some thoughts for this episode and I was like, wow, when you really just have like sex assigned at birth, it literally cuts out so much in between and there's so much in between. There has to be.
Courn: Oh yeah, there is and people act like that's like a fault.
Chase: Or like a new thing that we're talking about intersex.
Courn: Or it's like that's the problem. Like, oh, that's like a genetic abnormality. But actually genetic abnormalities are a normal part of human evolution. That's actually what makes us a rich and diverse species that's able to grow is the fact that we are constantly like having genetic abnormalities. That is normal. Like actually not being a genetic abnormality is not the normal thing. Cause that's how we adapt. I'm not saying the future is intersex. We're not doing some weird like eugenic stuff. But yeah, from what I'm reading online, and yeah, I don't know where this is coming from, intersexpeopleatochcr.org. So many staffs are saying as high as 1.7% is intersex, which like for context, people think that like the autistic population is like 1 to 2% as well. So that's usually a number I hear about 1 to 2. And that's a significant portion. And that's saying they could have any intersex trait, which like-
Chase: That alone could be broad, right?
Courn: Yeah. Cause I mean, that can include sexual anatomy, reproductive organs, like even hormonal patterns, like chromosomal patterns. So like-
Chase: Wow.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Gosh.
Courn: There's a lot of variance in people, but yeah, intersex people exist. So even when you just pose sex as a binary in that way, completely false. Like-
Chase: Go off. I love it.
Courn: The chromosomes do not say that. So.
Chase: What do the chromosomes say?
Courn: You want to, like people who have the, oh, well you should believe in science. There's only man and woman. Wrong. Wrong. You were absolutely wrong. Like tell me you don't understand science or reproductive organs by saying that shit.
Chase: Yeah, Kyle, you got a, you got a PhD over there.
Courn: People seem to think they do.
Chase: Watches one YouTube video and is suddenly an expert.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: YouTube certified.
Courn: I also just think the weird thing too, and this is like a, the terminology that comes with saying too, someone's assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth. I think it's interesting how that terminology has like being used, because it feels like a lot of times like is that language actually inclusive or is it just a placeholder for saying what your biological sex is and centering that in a discussion? Like it almost feels like it's used in a way, cause I feel like I've seen spaces where they're just like, oh, like this event is for women and AFAB women, which what does that mean?
Chase: Oh no.
Courn: So it is, it just, sometimes it does feel like an excuse to like get people to say what their biological sex is. And by using it as an acronym you're almost kind of using it in that way instead of like you almost should always be saying it all the way out. I was assigned female at birth and how that relates to the sentence but by using a term like AFAB, you're pretty much just saying they're biologically female, they're biologically male. And I think that's been interesting. I've been hearing a lot in discourses like kind of like, oh, you should be really cautious of using those terms, like spelling them out and having context for using that. So I think for me, like a correct context would be like, oh, and we're talking about like experiencing misogyny, like how AFAB individuals, when you were assigned female at birth, how growing up as a woman will make you experience misogyny. Verse just saying, oh this event is for AFAB people, or just like saying all AFAB people, because that's a really weird like, that doesn't actually provide that much information, that says nothing about what a person looks like by saying they're AFAB. You have no idea!
Chase: So it's just a way to further like pick a label that's not at all necessary or applicable in this situation?
Courn: Correct! And I think I've just been guilty of using that term too much because it kind of came out of nowhere and then everyone was saying like, oh, AFAB, AMAB, and it feels like it became the next big thing. It's just like, are you just looking for another reason to say someone's biological sex? Like, are you looking for a way to divide trans women from women, to divide trans men from men? And for a lot of purposes, yeah, it does feel like you're trying to divide them in insidious ways, not ways that are actually helpful towards gender discussions.
Chase: Right, because if you specifically differentiate women and AFAB, you are now saying AFAB are not women and women are not AFAB and vice versa.
Courn: Yeah, I think that's like a specificity thing. Like if you mean trans women, say that.
Chase: Yeah, just say it. That's fine. Like if you're women and trans women.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Well, I guess that's also a double. Oh my gosh. So you see I even just caught myself there. I was like, hold up, pause. That's the same thing.
Courn: I'm also not great with words. So I misuse vocab a lot. And I have to be very careful because these words mean a lot to people and you should be using them correctly. Yeah, give people grace. It’s also-
Chase: No, I love it because I was just, yeah, I mean my partner and I, we talk about that all the time. Like we'll say something and be like, wait, you mean this? And we're like, oh yeah, actually, thanks. And like it's as simple as that and it doesn't need to be a big deal. But what is, I feel like when the term, there is like a descriptor going around, I don't know if you know what it is off the top of your head, that basically just excludes like cis/het men. But there's like a term that almost includes everyone but them because it's trying to just kind of like create space, but also-
Courn: Just say that!
Chase: That's the thing, but like I don't think you can just go on a poster and be like everyone but cis het men, like you gotta like call out!
Courn: That feels like every queer event though that's supposed to be designed for like feminine spaces because a lot of the queer events they literally will say women and then they will say afab, non-binary, or gender non-conforming folks-
Chase: Oh god!
Courn: I feel it comes up a lot too. In like, like, sports teams that are like, oh, look, I think of like roller skating and teams like that. They're like, oh, we accept like women and non-gender conforming people, but like, no men. And then it starts getting like a little bit of like-
Chase: Well, because that then excludes trans men, right?
Courn: Yeah, so then it's kind of a sore subject. But like they do include trans men, but they just don't want you if you're like a trans woman or you're non-binary but was a man. Like it becomes very exclusionary very quick.
Chase: Right, so as much as you're trying to create labels to like create some protection and find community, it also can be like very exclusionary.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: I'm trying to think about what the Soccer League uses. I think they use queer women and trans people.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: I think that's kind of the most like kind of generic term you can use. I don't know.
Courn: I'm just like people, people are welcome, but also if you, just it, also just seems like they just want to say men, cis men, aren’t allowed…
Chase: *laughs*
Courn: I think it'd just be easier if you said that. I think it'd be easier if you just said that.
Chase: It would just be funny!
Courn: But also, I don't know, the differentiation of like being like, oh, like I'm comfortable with trans men and not cis men, I think is a conversation that more women and queer people need to have a conversation on. Because you see them as different when you say, I am uncomfortable with cis men, but I'm comfortable with trans men. It's like, why is that? Do you not see trans men as men?
Chase: Go off, let's go.
Courn: And you'd be like, oh yeah, you know, well like they make me more comfortable because like they're more, you know, socially inclined to know these issues. And it's like, then is your issue with men? Or is it with the society? Because anyone can perpetuate misogyny.
Chase: Yes. In fact, women do it a lot.
Courn: Trans men do it too. Like everybody can do it. Like it doesn't make sense. So, but red flag for me when people are just always hating and they're like, oh, cis men, cis women. And I'm like, it's important in conversations where you're being specific about what it means to come from a marginalized background and like have a gender nonconforming identity that people don't accept. But if it's to just be like, I'm not comfortable around cis people, like it starts, it becomes a slippery slope. Like what does that mean for you?
Chase: Correct! And like, correct, I like how you're differentiating and bringing that topic to the table.
Courn: Because I don't, I think it's a gray area. I think it's a gray area. I'm guilty of like overusing cis sometimes too, but I think the context definitely matters.
Chase: Wait, context matters?
Courn: Who would have know?
Chase: We've never said that before.
Courn: Yeah. It's also just like such a small part of the convo too, where I feel like some people put so much focus, I think this is this like a big critique with like the queer community, gender non-conforming community, is how much emphasis gets put on like being cis versus being trans. And how that makes someone a better person. And that doesn't even like think about like race, doesn't think of like socioeconomic background, doesn't think of a lot of things that actually can also signal to a lot of marginalized people that a person may be dangerous to you. It's just one small facet, so there's no hard fast rules of just being like oh, you know all non-binary people, they get it! Like all trans people, they're sick, they're cool! Like-
Chase: Just as toxic!
Courn: Yeah, on average, are they usually nicer? Yes! Because usually people who've experienced trauma like turn out maybe a little nicer, but-
Chase: A little empathy.
Courn: Yeah. But I don't know. I feel like my harshest critics have been people in the queer community. And-
Chase: Are you serious?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Oh, my gosh.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: This is why we just stay home all the time.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Good Lord.
Courn: Well, just none of these spaces have intersectionality. And like, you can't have discussions on gender-
Chase: Yeah, correct.
Courn: On autism, ADHD, without-
Chase: Just one lane. It's got to be multiple connecting. Yeah, that's a good point.
Courn: Yeah, all these things exist with each other. They're not separate. So yeah, I think just when you see so much of a prioritization of just like white people dominating gender non-conforming spaces, queer spaces, you see the conversations that come out of it are more about terminology and about surface level things versus like I don't know, the deep like racial justice, the deep disability justice that has to be done in all these spaces that is so interconnected. Like we're not out here yelling about terms, like I'm sorry, but like people can't get the care they get, they get bullied, they get harassed, they get murdered on the street. Like these are the issues you should be talking about as a gender non-conforming person. Like that affects all of us and it impacts Black and brown people the most and by not having people center those conversations, like it's such a miss. It's such a miss, like you lose so much of it!
Chase: So we got to keep, we got to keep talking about it folks, share this with your friends, tell your family, listen to this.
Courn: Subscribe, leave a rating, comment, share, smash that subscribe button!
Chase: *laughs* Not that, no that's the worst one, why did that turn into that. Smash that subscribe button, hit that!
Courn: I love that, Iove that when people just point on screen and then it pops up.
Chase: Ding!
Courn: That's my favorite era of YouTube.
Chase: When they go like they point down at the different things.
Courn: Yeah, at the end where they're just like crossed hands, looking to the camera and it's like...
Chase: Or they're like, I'll put a link up here, bing, and just goes to the little point.
Courn: Yeah. But then the video gets re-uploaded and it doesn't have it anymore.
Chase: And it's just them going, *clicks*
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Old YouTube days.
Courn: Chase, have you seen a lot of like the videos around people being being confused about like non-binary people being lesbians or like trans men being lesbians? I feel like it keeps coming up a lot.
Chase: So I have not seen them directly but I know what you're talking about and the heaviness of my sigh I think just indicates how I feel about it. Go off, what were you gonna say though?
Courn: Yeah, well first I just think it's really interesting because I think I first started seeing that terminology being used a couple years ago and then I was like, I, off first glance I was like, whoa what, what does that mean? I thought if you're non-binary, then you're non-gender conforming, how could you?
Chase: Be a non-binary lesbian?
Courn: Yeah. And then what do you know? I Googled it and was like, oh.
Chase: It's a thing.
Courn: And read someone's opinion. It was like, that makes a lot of sense.
Chase: What did you read?
Courn: The first thing that I seemed to first read was talking about how a lot of people did not come out as gender non-conforming or they lived essentially like as a queer lesbian person for the bulk of their life. Like we know, non-binary people aren't new and we're actually finding that so many people in the lesbian community in particular because the lesbian identities have just been so closely intertwined with gender nonconforming ideas of like being butch, being masc, being femme, like that's pretty unique to the lesbian community. So yeah, there's a lot of like, I don't know, lesbians back in the day that were like using male pronouns, like using non-binary pronouns without being out. So that's definitely part of it. So there's a lot of people that are like, I have whatever, if you've lived as lesbian for your life, like that's an identity you have, even if you come out as gender non-conforming later in life, you're like, you're still a lesbian. I lived as a lesbian 30 years, like there's an acknowledgement that there's duality there. There's also just like some people feel like a label resonates and they want to use it and that's okay too. Like we know like non-binary isn't necessarily like a binary. That's the whole point. Where like your gender is fluctuating. Sometimes you feel like a woman sometimes you don't. So like yeah, there absolutely can be like trans men who are lesbian. There can be non-binary people are lesbian either because they lived as lesbians for so long their life. That's a point that they just can't get rid of their identity. Yeah.
Chase: Mm-hmm. No, it's a good point because when my wife was going through their non-binary journey as well, we had that talk where I was like, do you still resonate with lesbian? Do you still want me to refer you as that? Does that resonate with you? Ultimately, I don't really care what label you pick. It's not gonna impact me, but when I'm referring to other things, how can I best represent your identity?
Chase: We had to go through that and ultimately landed on, no, still resonates, non-binary, she/they, but gonna use that. But it is interesting that you bring that up because so many especially what 30, 40 years ago like lesbians couldn't be out in public, like they really, there are certain times when like it wasn't safe for them to be out just women on women appearing women on women like relationships, like one would have to dress up as a man and pretend to be a man so that they could go in public places and not be harassed and have would be like safe. So at the end of the day, again, does the label matter? For sure, for some it absolutely does, but also not. In a way.
Courn: Yeah. It's a complicated thing.
Chase: For sure, and I'm not here to tell people what labels they should and should not take up, but it just goes to show that like, they've always existed. We just haven't talked about it as much.
Courn: Correct. And like that's not to say that just like, oh a huge percentage of the lesbian population is actually trans men and actually non-binary.
Chase: No. Not what we're saying.
Courn: No. But there was a portion, like that was really the only route that you could do to love women. So.
Chase: Yeah to like literally be yourself and authentically love people you wanted to love.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Oh my gosh. It is really trippy though. Like the trans men lesbian piece. I think when you start to like, I don't know, when you look at a textbook, it does kind of cause confusion of textbook definition and things, but then at the same time you zoom out and you're like, oh, gender identity, gender roles, gender expression, it kind of all intertwines and it can be anything.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Like it really can!
Courn: I just think there’s too much focus on it. Like I just I've been seeing that pop up whatever the Google search trending words it's like he/him lesbians and non-binary lesbians.
Chase: This resurfaced. This resurfaced.
Courn: Yeah, and I there was like a big article on it, I think like 3 years ago, when I originally saw this whole like, I don't know, discussion get really large people being confused, but it's coming up again. But I don't know, it just feels like a distraction to me. Like it feels like a shock factor. I'm not blaming these creators for saying, oh, you know, I'm a non-binary lesbian. You do whatever you want.
Chase: Right!
Courn: But it definitely feels like people latch onto that and then be like, well, this is why, you know, gender is confusing and sexuality is confusing. And it's like, no, you just don't understand these things. Like, I think I've seen a lot of like dialogue that's like talks about, oh like either you can tell when someone's LGBT and you can tell when someone's queer, like how it becomes about labels vs first a spectrum of like what it means to be a queer person, to have non-conforming gender and sexuality, like those are 2 very different things and I was like, oh I definitely resonate with that and I think that's why I resonate so much with the queer label because it doesn't feel like there's these limits. It's very fluid.
Chase: Same. Right and I think because in my relationship we do not identify with so many of the traditional gender roles like, we are like very fluid with stuff like you said the queer label it just kind of matches, it just makes more sense because it's just more broad and all-encompassing it allows for more individuality with him.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Customization. I was gonna go with like yeah the cars or like you know and like the like Madden games you could customize your athlete but that's okay.
Courn: I do like the idea of customizing. Red flag if you kept customizing your characters to be a different gender than you when you were a kid playing video games.
Chase: *laughs* I def did that. I def did that.
Courn: Also me.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Just like making the most androgynous like characters and I was like I don't want them to look too girly.
Chase: Oh, I definitely made mine look like some muscly men.
Courn: These beefcakes rolling out.
Chase: Yeah not me in the gym as a little teenager like every day of the week.
Courn: Okay, also maybe it's just video game design, but also like the female parts did not look good. Like early Sims-
Chase: Why is it always bad?
Courn: They look so bad.
Chase: You just get big old titties.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: And that's it.
Courn: It's like Tomb Raider, massive bazonka triangle.
Chase: Angelina Jolie though. Yeah.
Courn: I see I never actually watched that movie.
Chase: I've never seen it either.
Courn: Whatever, I played a lot of like Lara Croft games.
Chase: That's absolutely valid. Or it's the like heroine chic. Or it's like the massively large and like there was only extremes there was no like in between.
Courn: Yeah
Chase: When you got to pick.
Courn: I think it's just lazy video game design.
Chase: For sure! My Rock Band character back in like Guitar Hero days had purple hair. Gay. Gay!
Courn: I never played Rock Band but I did play Guitar Hero and I always chose the Asian character, which they were a girl character but they had colored hair.
Chase: Yeah. I did like the little custom characters. So you did not the ones you picked, but I was like customized mine. Yeah.
Courn: Oooh. Go off!
Chase: It was like a pinkish purple hair.
Courn: Gay!
Chase: Gay! No one's-
Courn: Green flag.
Chase: Everyone saw the signs. The signs were always there, people. All right. Well, I gotta go dig up my old Sims game and customize my characters gender and everything. Do you have some Sims still, do you still have the game?
Courn: Yeah, I do.
Chase: Okay. Well, we're gonna go to your house and play it.
Courn: Let's go.
Chase: Let's go, bye.
Courn: Bye.
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!