Episode 13: Gender: a performance (part 1)
Chase: Welcome to Neurotakes, I'm Chase.
Courn: This is Courn. Let's get into it.
Chase: Courn, how do you know you're non-binary?
Courn: You know, that's a good question. Okay, I feel like I get asked this a lot and I feel like it means different things to different people. I will say that as a disclaimer. But, I feel like it's kind of one of those things innately that you just know. Like how do you know you're straight? How do you know you're gay? How do you know you're a woman or a man? For me, it always just felt like a feeling. So, I don't know what it's like for women, but I just feel like when I was growing up, I didn't feel like one. I didn't even really resonate with the idea of gender at all. I felt like it was something kind of outside myself. Like I used to run around telling everybody that I was an alien.
Chase: *laughs*
Courn: And like, most people are like, yeah, yeah, that tracks. Maybe that was a sign if you're going around telling everyone that you're not a girl, you're an alien, so yeah.
Chase: *laughs* Okay, sure!
Courn: I think that was a big thing for me. I think I just never had the language to describe what it meant to be non-binary. And I think as I got older, it became more apparent to me. Like I actually had visceral disgust about being referred to as a girl. And I thought it was mainly just because, oh, I didn't like being sexualized. Like men, I think for the longest time I thought I was just like, oh, I don't like being called a woman. I don't like being called a girlfriend or a wife because it feels like it's under the male gaze, which I think was definitely part of it. But I think as I've gotten older, I've just realized I didn't like being called those things because I didn't feel like a woman. Like even not agreeing with my name, I couldn't really tell people why I hated the name Courtney so much growing up. I just never resonated with it. And I used to make all these types of excuses. I was like, oh, it sounds like a white girl's name. You know, I'm half Asian. I was like, it doesn't feel like it represents me.
Chase: I mean, yeah, you're not wrong.
Courn: Yeah. And I go, it sounds like some blonde girl. And I just didn't feel like I resonated with it. But then I just like, when I got to the core of like, why do I feel so uncomfortable with that name? Why do I love Courn so much?
Courn: It was just because it felt androgynous. Like, yeah.
Chase: Hell yeah.
Courn: So I think that's how I knew. I don't know, A lot of people will tell you different things what it means to be non-binary or agender. It's just kind of a feeling.
Chase: That absolutely makes sense.
Courn: Yeah. I think especially once you know too the amount of like, I never felt any gender euphoria so soon as I started identifying as non-binary, using they/them pronouns, and like I feel like dressing myself how I wanted to, like it just I just felt this instant relief. Like I didn't realize how natural things would feel until I started doing them like, I was like man why didn't I have this option when I was younger? Like I didn't know it existed, so.
Chase: That's fair. I definitely did not know non-binary was an option or a choice.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Until like really the big craze and like trendiness with it came around. What do you think? 2020? 2019?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: For me, maybe that's for what that's when it maybe got onto my feed and stuff, wasn't until I really kind of got thrown into the tiktok algorithm and getting just a bunch of lesbian content and I was obviously liking it, interacting with so much, and they're like well, we found another-
Courn: You might like this!
Chase: Yeah and so they're like, well, and so I think that is maybe my first interaction with it. So I'm pretty new to just like that in general as well.
Courn: I think me too. I think I only really knew about the term like maybe 5 years ago, top tops, which is so soon. And I think the term non-binary was only like coined in like 1995.
Chase: That makes sense!
Courn: So it's pretty new, but I mean obviously non-binary people existed-
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Forever.
Chase: Yeah, and like honestly even multi-gendered folks, people who resonate with both, like gender fluid has been a part of indigenous, and just any indigenous culture/even like Hawaiian culture, there's a lot of ancient cultures and civilizations that have recordings of people who flow in and out of the binary like that so definitely not a new thing. I have one question because you said like you didn't like the terms and you still don't, wife, because of the male gaze kind of like connection. Since you are panromantic, how does that change if you were to put it in the context of like being partnered with a woman? Does it change?
Courn: I mean, maybe it would change. I don't know. I've just always felt such a dissonance to the word wife and I just don't know if that's just because we live in a patriarchy and I just feel so strongly that wife has become synonymous with like property of a man and maybe that's a thing I need to unpack. But I just feel like I've noticed anytime, you know, prior that my partner used to introduce me as a wife prior to before I came out when I was non-binary, it did feel like this very like awkward thing. And I think the queerness definitely contributed to that because I was just like, oh man, like I'm, I don't know, it feels so like cis-het, just being like husband and wife and I'm like, oh I'm queer and I know I'm with a cis man but like I'm more than that! So it just didn't feel like it covered my experience completely and it made me uncomfortable. And you know, you shouldn't have to use words that make you uncomfortable. But I know there's also so much like pride too that can come with being like, I don't know, just being a lesbian couple being like, this is my wife. Like, that's so exciting. Like, I'm not against gendered language. We should be able to use that and I think it'd be really empowering but yeah, maybe that's just my non-binary-ness showing but I'm like, I don't like it for me.
Chase: That's absolutely fair. That's always the lens we use in this podcast is just our experience with it, never really applying to the masses, well rarely rarely applying to the masses. So it's definitely about how these terms and things relate to us and our takes on it. That's why we started this.
Courn: Yeah. I guess it'd probably also be helpful to talk too about the differences between like gender and sex because I. There's definitely like a lot of misconceptions that people don't understand.
Chase: I would agree
Courn: Yeah, cause we know that like sex refers to like biological differences. Like this is usually framed about, around being female or male, but we know that intersex identities make this whole biological like argument kind of like mixed and confusing because like we know biologically, it's not just in between male and female, there's a lot of identities biologically that exist outside of that, combinations of that, but usually when you're referring someone's sex yet is it is their biological makeup.
Chase: I think of it like anatomy or like just kind of physical characteristic kind of thing.
Courn: Yeah, so I think a lot of people think of that like literally in your DNA. Not just your sex organs but things like that.
Chase: Yeah. Correct. Yeah that's a good clarification.
Courn: Yeah and then gender is what mainly what we're talking about today being non-binary is a gender identity, it's not a sexual identity but this refers to like all the social constructs, like appearance, roles, expressions, like actions, behaviors, more so, that define what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, like anywhere in between, or completely outside of that plane. Like these are all things that we learn. And I think for me, a good example when I think about this is thinking about like when you see a dog on the street, like off a first glance you really couldn't be like, oh that's a girl dog, that's a boy dog without seeing their genitalia. And most people like, don't just assume if you saw a dog, like that dog looks girly. Like we have this notion of that dogs look kind of androgynous. But I think with humans, it's hard for us to like, take that layer back. So we're like, oh, because humans have the way they walk, of the way they dress, the way they act, that suddenly you have all these preconceived notions of what it means to be a man or a woman.
Chase: Yeah. You know if it's a boy dog though if it's got a blue collar.
Courn: Yeah, yeah. Well, both my dogs, boy and girl, both wear pink and purple collars.
Chase: So there you go.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: That leads right into like gendered colors, which we'll get into and how like strange that is. But the difference of like you said, the gender expression or gender identity, like your sex and like, you know, just a sex signed at birth.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Right. And then you get, all of these layers. We won't get into attraction on this episode, but like that absolutely ties into all of this too.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: I'm excited.
Courn: Yeah, that's what they always say is like the second coming of after you figure out your sexuality, then you have to unpack your gender.
Chase: Oh, tell me about it.
Courn: Which then impacts all of your sexuality. It doesn't have to, but it did for me.
Chase: No, yeah. I mean, I think that's what a lot of like queer studies people would say, cause I am in kind of this like gender, like researching and unpacking myself. Yeah, it's like your gender is somehow always tied to your sexuality but your sexuality is also always tied to your gender so then like how do you separate but then have those things exist without them having existing but then not existing then, yeah it's so wild and I cannot wait for this episode, this is great!
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Did you ever learn about the genderbread person, it's like the gingerbread but it's like a genderbread.
Courn: I don't like remember anything beyond that just being like a picture on Facebook that conservatives were sharing.
Chase: Oh no, oh no!
Courn: And they were like, oh no, now they're getting our gingerbread men. But also I just thought they all looked pretty gender neutral. Well, I guess some of them have the skirts, right?
Chase: Well, no, no, no, no, no. We're talking about two different things.
Courn: Oh, it's not about gingerbread cookies? I really thought this was about gingerbread cookies.
Chase: No, no, no, no. This is like an actual model or like thing that has come out to like teach kids about like gender expression, and identity, and sex, and things.
Courn: What?!
Chase: And it's supposed to show all the different layers and kind of like put them in, yeah.
Courn: I've never heard of this.
Chase: Yeah, it's like a whole thing.
Courn: Explain it to me!
Chase: Oh, I mean, you already went into it about like, you got your gender expression, your gender identity, anatomical sex, and then your attraction is kind of like the new layer to it. So it's just explaining in like a visual form that you can have these different pieces make up you and stuff like that.
Courn: That's kind of cute.
Chase: It's super wholesome. It's a good time because obviously gingerbread person is also neutral, but it shows that you can basically have almost things, that kind of counter, or you can have these things that contradict all be in one person, right? So like you could be assigned one sex at birth, you could have your gender identity not agree with that later in life, you're you know all these different things and so it was just I thought it was cute and wholesome and it always makes my inner child happy when I hear that there are new ways to teach kids these things that we didn't have.
Courn: I would have loved that especially because I loved all like the Christmas stuff which is a little toxic but I would have been like, oh yeah, gingerbread person!
Chase: Do I sense a fixation coming on?
Courn: *sighs* You might, you might.
Chase: Yeah, have you ever had someone tell you that they just don't believe like gender is real, or they or like almost in like an argumentative way of just like well I don't believe in gender expression.
Courn: Yeah, I feel like I've gotten from both sides. I feel like the way you said it is kind of like a conservative person being like, oh yeah well you know there's a man and a woman and that's Adam and Eve and that's what the Bible told me so!
Chase: That's why they didn't make Adam and Steve. Have you heard that?
Courn: *laughs* Yeah.
Chase: That got you.
Courn: That was just really funny.
Chase: That got you.
Courn: Is there an Eve and...
Chase: No, what's the other to Eve? Adam and Eve. What's the other one?
Courn: I was trying to think of Killing Eve.
Chase: Amy and Eve. Amy and Eve! *laughs*
Courn: Yeah, it's not Amy and Eve. Yeah, I feel like I've only ever really heard that argument. But then they're simultaneously saying that gender does exist. The thing is, they don't think it exists when it's pertinent to you. But as soon as you use the wrong pronouns on a cis person, they suddenly believe that gender identity exists, because if you call a grown-ass man she/her they’re just like WOAH WOAWAWA! They don't understand pronouns until they get misgendered.
Chase: *laughs* You can just hear their head exploding!
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: God, to be so weak that you just get taken out by the wrong pronoun usage.
Courn: That's what I hear more. People are just like, oh, like, I don't have pronouns.
Chase: True, true!
Courn: And I'm like, did you take English class? Do you know what a pronoun is?
Chase: What are your pronouns? And they're like, not applicable.
Courn: I just love when they're just like, straight man.
Chase: My pronouns are N-A. *laughs*
Courn: That is so unhinged, like fine.
Chase: It's the same people who will then turn around and be like, you can't use they/them. That's for plural only. It's like the same IQ level.
Courn: That's actually like my biggest microaggression. I think people talk about gender and my mom even said that to me the other day not in quite that way, but she was like I just always thought about as a plural word and I'm like it's not!
Chase: Which is like-
Courn: I’t been used singularly for like 600 years!
Chase: Yes!
Courn: Shakespeare used they in a singular, like think of any scenario where you're like, oh I had a new co-worker. What's their name? There you go. You just used it singularly.
Chase: No there's two people!
Courn: Oh, the post person dropped by.
Chase: The post person!
Courn: They dropped by.
Chase: Nooo. True. Yeah, that's always the analogy I give.
Courn: Anytime you don't know someone's like gender, it's not that hard. So, I don't know. I think that's just a stupid argument. People just like want to create another barrier.
Chase: Yeah, my analogy is always the mail person. Oh, did the male come today? Yeah. No, like they didn't drop off the mail or like if you don't know the gender of like the person coming over and like, oh, when are they coming over?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: But then I also just think that a lot of older people just assume the gender depending on the position. So you're like, oh, it's a mailman.
Chase: Yep.
Courn: Oh, someone cut me off in traffic. It's a man. Oh, someone almost hit me in traffic. It's a woman.
Chase: I was going to say.
Courn: Yeah. Like it becomes gendered really quick. I noticed like that's how my parents were taught growing up. Like they did gender a lot of people and they didn't use as much non-gender pronouns, but they know how to use it. They took an English class.
Chase: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's just, again, an argument to not have to respect your identity and what you're wanting to use.
Courn: Correct. I feel like I'm just like a firm believer that you cannot have like a respectful, like evenly balanced conversation with someone if you can't call them by the name or the pronouns that they want to use. Like you're just not on even ground. Like you can't even have a conversation, like let alone a relationship with someone if you cannot respect that. Like, I don't understand why when you bring up pronouns, people are like, oh, it's too hard for me to call you that. But if any other situation, if you were just like, oh, introduce yourself. My name is Courn. Like if someone's like, no, your name is Jessica because you look like a fucking Jessica!
Chase: That's fair. There was a tiktok that went viral that someone was like, how dare you not call someone by their name? Like-
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: If we all just don't want to call each other people, or if we just don't want to call people their names, we're just based on what they look like. Because like you look like a woman, I'm going to call you a woman's name. Like, great. I'm gonna call you an ugly worm because you look like an ugly worm. So guess what ugly worm? Your name is now ugly worm. You want to go down that road?
Courn: Let's go.
Chase: Uggos. Come on. Always the uggos who make the arguments too.
Courn: It's always just old people for me.
Chase: For sure. For sure. But your dogs, you said, wear two colored collars. I want to go back to gendered colors because this is a wild piece too.
Courn: Yeah, Adobe wears the purple one, lavender-
Chase: Ayy oh!
Courn: And he's a little boy-
Chase: Gay!
Courn: Chappi’s a little girl and she wears pink-
Chase: Gay, gay!
Courn: They both are very very pan, by their actions and their manners.
Chase: Sure, that’s fair!
Courn: That's not just me reflecting my queerness on my dogs, I might be a little bit.
Chase: *laughs* Just trying to surround yourself with some queerness.
Courn: No, Bean down with the boy dogs. I actually think he likes boy dogs more so.
Chase: You know-
Courn: He's a little gay leaning.
Chase: I also am learning in queer history studies that like there's some arguments and perspectives that like gay was the first type of relationship and attraction because it's makes the most sense for you to be attracted to what is most similar to you.
Courn: Ooooh!
Chase: In a way, not that this is true and like everyone has to subscribe to this, but it is an interesting thought that because like you are most attracted to something that's like similar that you can relate to.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: That was actually the first like go of, of maybe it like relationships, whatever it is, and then it turned into at whatever point I'm sure with the introduction of religion and Christianity.
Courn: I just have to interject because I think that is true because I find it so interesting that phenomenon where people date people that look like them and why people who don't know if they have like siblings like, whatever the man with a thousand kids, whatever that doctor who artificially inseminated all his patients,
Chase: Gross, yes!
Courn: That people will be like drawn to each other that are related like that's a studied phenomena so.
Chase: Yeah well and then of course there's kind of this joking argument that like men are so gay for each other, right? Like the bros are always bro-ing for each other. But like it's true. Like y'all just attracted to the same things or interested in the same thing. So, not that that's truth because you have the biological argument of like how do people procreate and make more babies, also seems like a false argument because now we have bone marrow babies but-
Courn: And animals! Do that all the time in animal kingdom, like a lot, a lot of them are gay!
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: That gay penguin couple?
Chase: Oh so cute!
Courn: Representation!
Chase: We love it, thanks parks and rec! I just think now like gender is so weird. I think now that I've like unpacked it, it's such a weird like when you really look at gender being a social construct, it all just feels like a lie. It feels like we're just living in a simulation.
Courn: Correct. It also just makes me think like, oh maybe if we didn't have all these like really hard and fast constructs around gender, like maybe people wouldn't feel so inclined that they have to reject it. Like even like myself, like it feels like such a narrow definition of what it means to be a woman, how to present like one, how to act like one, that it makes it just like feel really isolating if you don't feel like that. But all these like traits that get tied to being a woman are like so superficial. It's just like looking pretty and wearing makeup and feminine presenting. Like all these things, I'm like if we didn't tie this to being a woman would I be less offended about being called a she/her? Like probably, but we don't know!
Chase: It’s the social rules that have maybe changed that. That was definitely something I realized as I've started to unravel and dissect my understanding of gender is that people aren't necessarily born a man or a woman. They become a man or a woman. That's like a very famous quote of someone. And like that's how you know it's a role and something that's kind of perpetuated. It's not necessarily intrinsic. Now for some people it is. Go off if it is. Like if you resonate with those gender roles or parts of it, cool. But many people are learning now that they actually don't.
Courn: Yeah, I just wonder how much of that is just like ingraining you from society from a young age like, oh, your parents dressed you in a dress and painted your toenails and gave you a Claire's piercing. So like you just embody that, you know what it means to be a little girl, what it means to grow up as a woman and maybe if you didn't have those expectations, it'd be different. But like I think gender is really interesting to me because I think as much as it is an internal thing, it's very much an external thing too.
Chase: Absolutely, yep!
Courn: And I don't think you can take that aspect away from it. And I think it's different from sexuality in that way. And that internally, I think I am affected by external factors. Like if I didn't know what it meant to be a man or a woman, like then maybe I wouldn't care so much about my gender identity, but-
Chase: I'm not a man or woman. I'm just Courn.
Courn: I'm just an alien. I'm just a little alien going around!
Chase: Enby alien!
Courn: Yeah, which I think the alien thing is so funny because I hear that a lot in autism communities and I hear that as a way to discredit a lot of like queer autistic people, not only for their sexuality but for their gender as well being like, oh like you're not capable of understanding that you're queer-
Chase: Holy shit, really?
Courn: Understanding your gender because a lot of autistic people do feel a dissonance from a lot of societal standards. Something about the neurological differences, but people just feel less tied to gender. So I think there's a lot more openness.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: But yeah, saying that someone's incapable of understanding their sexuality or gender because they're autistic, absolutely not true. Super problematic.
Chase: Lies! You lie.
Courn: But I'm like, does it affect it? Probably. I think being autistic definitely affects like my queerness and my ability to be open to, I mean, I've never really fit into societal standards. So what's another one? What's-
Chase: My wife was saying the same thing. And I was like curious even just your thoughts on like any correlation because obviously there's no way to like truly study and make maybe like a scientific connection but like there's absolutely some anecdotal stuff going around.
Courn: There has been like some smaller studies that aren't, so like the data isn't big enough, but they can confidently say that more autistic people end up being queer and having non-conforming gender identities than non-autistic people. And that's what the data is showing and there's some to even say that just like neurodivergent people in general also more likely to be gay.
Chase: That's what I was wondering. Yeah.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Or not essentially fitting into like the societal standard.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Or being different and working outside of that.
Courn: And like the data isn't super strong, but I feel like I just anecdotally and personally, I know so many queer people that are just like, also end up being autistic and have ADHD. And I'm like, that's not.
Chase: I almost get to the point where if I find out someone is like one thing, I just assume the other not like a bad way and just like no this is just so much such a common thing that I'm finding with people.
Courn: Yeah I think it's just vibes, feel like kind of similar sometimes. I'm just like I'm, I always make that joke you know, the one hand and like are you, mmm gay, double hands, t-rex arms. Because sometimes I can't tell and maybe that's just me not being able to pick up. But I can just tell when someone's like a little bit different like me and I'm like, mmmmmm.
Chase: Mmhmm. I do wanna point out, like you said though, that you don't really know where the gender role almost like comes from, or just further perpetuating it because it's all performative and the more that you like then essentially perform it, the more authentic it becomes and the more real it is so like I don't know where the original role came from and where it started. I'm not a history nerd, I don't know, that enough but I'm sure you could really go in and find where that started because the roles have also changed over time like the role of women have changed dramatically. The role of men have has definitely changed, thanks to colonialism and everything else. But I thought that was interesting too. Like just kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? Like the more you say it, the more it happens. Thus, the more you say it happens. And so it's going to keep happening. It just spirals.
Courn: Mm-hmm. That's something I feel like, I don't know, just the idea of gender and gender roles will never be truly disrupted, I mean, at the pace that we're progressing. I mean, it's getting better, but I mean, tell me why, you know, you can walk down the street and almost instantly have an innate decision looking at someone for 2 seconds what gender they are. Like, that's very deeply ingrained. Like, I can't get rid of that.
Chase: Oh, it's weird as hell. When you start really like thinking about that, you can look at someone and immediately know what their genitalia is.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Or like what their genitalia was assigned. Like, oh, that's-
Courn: That's a weird thought process!
Chase: Once that hit for me, I was just like, oh no, oh, this is, oh, this is weird.
Courn: It's deeply problematic. I think too, as I spend more time in queer spaces, I feel like I've gotten like really, this is like a sad thing to say, but I've gotten really good at like clocking other non-binary people and like seeing something like, oh, that person's trans. And I say that in my head and I'm like, why am I saying that? Like, why am I thinking that? Like, why do I feel the need to just instantly judge someone and say, oh, I'm going to assume.
Chase: And then try to identify also maybe which way they've transitioned or something too.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: And you're like, hold up, hold up, hold up. This doesn't matter at all. What is, no. Pause, rewind. It doesn’t matter!
Courn: No. That shit is so toxic. But it's like, you can't just like turn that off.
Chase: Well, you have to acknowledge it to be able to uproot it too. So like as much as it isn't maybe like I don't know, I'm embarrassed by that, I won't speak for you-
Courn: Oh yeah!
Chase: And like I'm disappointed in it, you still have to like name it and let it live so that way we can be like okay now I recognize this, let's relearn it. It's kind of like you know gotta learn a new trick.
Courn: Correct. I feel like the first step is not saying it out loud.
Chase: Do not say it out loud folks.
Courn: The second step is not being happy about thinking it and just being like, I'm gonna redirect.
Chase: And you have to sit with that uncomfiness for a bit.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: I feel like because if you're just like, well, that felt weird. Anyways, I'm a good person. Look at me.
Courn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, that's how it is on learning stuff, it's hard when people are learning pronouns because I think a lot of people come from the mindset of like, oh I'm just memorizing someone's preferred pronouns and I hate the term preferred, as if you know that's just what they prefer if it's not them.
Chase: As if it's like not theirs, there's actually something else that could be called.
Courn: Yep! It's their preferred, it's not their real ones.
Chase: No, it’s their real pronouns.
Courn: So, when people think about memorizing pronouns, they're like, oh, I'm just memorizing pronouns instead of actually doing the harder work, which is like deconstructing gender and thinking about why am I suddenly thinking because of how this person looks, like what's in their pants, how I should refer to them, how they identify, like reversing that whole process altogether and thinking like, I need to decolonize my mind. I need to deconstruct my ideas of gender. And people don't want to do that work, but that's really what people want you to do. I don't just want you to memorize oh, Courn she/her but they told me they want to be they/them so that's what I'm gonna use-
Chase: That’s a good point!
Courn: Even though I think she's a woman, I'm gonna use these pronouns because she asked me to and that's. I can tell when people are like that, verse actually like thinking oh that's them, like there's a difference.
Chase: Yeah, it's what are your preferred pronouns versus what pronouns do you use?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: I'm not gonna lie someone at work asked me that recently and I was very proud because I'm pretty sure this person is like cis-het man and I was about to just be like wow the bar is in the ground, to be impressed by that.
Courn: I do feel like a lot of people ask about your pronouns just because you look-
Chase: Okay, we gotta go into this I'm the oldest child of the family so I feel like the oldest child always has like some independence and like you know whatever. I spent a lot of time, like more with my dad growing up and my sister spent a lot more time with my mom. So I feel like I kind of like was absorbed around maybe like socialized around men a lot more and just kind of like manly things. So I don't know how much that plays into it. But even from early age, I don't know. I didn't want to, I wasn't into like girly things. I didn't like anything that was girly. So like no pink for me. Basketball shorts, wanted to look kind of like a boy. I did not want to be a boy ever. That was not a thought but it was just kind of like I don't want to do girly things. I want to do the things that boys do because it was more fun. It was more interesting. It's more exciting. Even from that age I was just kind of like whatever. Yeah, I'm a girl but I can do these things. I think that was always my thought going into it. It's like okay, society tells me like I'm a girl or like whatever, but like I want to do these things anyways so I'm just gonna do that and so like whether that's me just unpacking and telling everyone my gender confusion at this point, who knows? But yeah,know I just use she/her kind of out of spite. Is that toxic? *laughs*
Courn: *laughs* No, I think it's hilarious.
Chase: One, I love when people like use pronouns and then like look exactly the opposite of what you think it would be almost right just to kind of like flip the script and like challenge society so I kind of just do that now I'm just like-
Courn: It's a little toxic but if it also resonates best with you or you don't feel like you're ready-
Chase: I'm sorry folks!
Courn: You know, although I do feel like there's that like tiktok trend where it's like oh you know meet our daughter Samantha and then it shows the super buff dude and you're like oh my god, that's what I think about when people introduce their trans kids like-
Chase: Oh no! Okay, that's not what I'm trying to be but I just I know what you mean like I don't know just because you assume one thing like absolutely I'm like not that thing but it is kind of funny to see people squirm when I find out she/her.
Courn: That's fair.
Chase: And who knows folks. I mean at this point it's kind of like apathy. I don't really care either but now I'm just kind of like you tell me one thing. I'm gonna do the opposite.
Courn: Yeah, why is it interesting just like I know just from knowing you I feel like every friend that I've had who sort of knows you, but hasn't met you, like, I'll be talking about you.
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: And they're like, wait, like, does Chase use they/them pronouns? Every single time.
Chase: Every person.
Courn: Mind you, no one has asked about your spouse.
Chase: Nope.
Courn: No one asked about me.
Chase: Correct.
Courn: Because like we're more femme presenting.
Chase: Correct.
Courn: So I think that, I think that's a bigger discussion too where it's feel like people think that non-binary people owe you androgyny. And let's be real, if you're non-binary, you look non-binary because there's no way to look right or wrong non-binary. It's both an internal and an external thing. So some people may want to dress more androgynous, but it's very much an internal mindset. So it really doesn't make sense.I also think I just have a lot of beef of what it means to look androgynous.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Because the more you think about it, it just feels like misogyny. Like it literally feels like-
Chase: Yeah, let's go into that a bit.
Courn: It just feels like the traits and features of women are just being rejected. Because what does androgynous look like? It usually looks like, skinny boy!
Chase: It's always male. It's always masculine. Androgynous is always masculine.
Courn: It's like no boobs. Yeah. It's like no feminine features. Like you don't wear makeup. You have short hair, which when you think about that, what are you describing? That would be a stereotypical man, but they need to look like, you know,
Chase: Kind of girly.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Like a little girly and like a little boyish. Right.
Courn: Yeahhh!
Chase: Like, I feel like it's like a little bit of each.
Courn: I just found it really interesting spending more time in non-binary spaces. Cause it literally feels like if you are an AFAB non-binary person, it's very much like, oh, when you're getting top surgery, are you gonna get bottom surgery? Like, when are you gonna start socially transitioning, physically transitioning? And it's not the same for like non-binary people who are assigned male at birth. Like it's literally just like, they can just like put a skirt on and suddenly they are the peak of androgyny because they're a male body wearing a skirt. That's androgynous.
Chase: Let's talk about that for a bit. I feel like you don't see very many like assigned male at birth folks who look androgynous and identify maybe non-binary and like anything outside of their binary and assigned at birth. I just, I don't know. Maybe it's the communities I'm in, but like, like you're right. It's like one little thing, has long hair. You know, it's like-
Courn: They just don't have to try harder. Maybe that's like, that's how it should be. I'm not saying, I'm envious of that because that's how it should be. You should just be able to say oh I'm non-binary, it should be something as easy as like oh, it shouldn't be like oh you wear a skirt instantly you're non-binary, but I would hope like it's a little easier to grasp. I don't know, like I feel like I could try so hard to look androgynous and people still would never pick me up because I just don't have the body for it like I got a I got c/d cups, I can't look androgynous!
Chase: Let's go into that, oh my gosh! I didn't even think about that!
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Humans with wider set hips right are always assumed female or feminine, even let's say just men who have like more curves, right. It's like, what's wrong with you?
Courn: And also like not everyone wants to pass for androgynous. Like no one, no one has to, it can just be an internal thing of, I don't feel like a woman, but like I still like to dress femininely. I still like, I like having a feminine body or I like having breasts or I like looking this way. Like it doesn't make you any less non-binary. But people definitely feel that way about you. It makes it a lot harder for people, even inside the community, but especially people outside like they cannot grasp the concept of someone who presents like a female saying they're non-binary. And it's always been a little bit easier for a man to say it and maybe that's just misogyny because I feel like the bulk of non-binary people I know too usually are transitioning from female and I find that very like interesting, like I don't know if it's just an increased rate, maybe just because there's so much misogyny in society and there's such a narrow definition of what it means to be a woman that people who are assigned female at birth just feel like I need to get out of this label so so bad because I definitely resonate with that, but I'm not trying to invalidate that I'm like oh, we're only non-binary because of sexism but like does it contribute? Yeah!
Chase: Oh that's a wild point it has to! I would think.
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: On a podcast that we just share our opinions!
Courn: Yeah, yeah!
Chase: I would think so. Yeah holy smokes way to just okay, I like need to sit with that one for a bit, that's such a good point!
Courn: Oh man, this is kind of going long, so I think we're gonna split this up into a second part. So we'll hear from you guys next week.
Chase: Come back for part 2.
Courn: Bye!
Chase: Bye!
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!