Episode 12: Asians are holding up zombie shows
Courn: Welcome to Neurotakes, this is Courn!
Chase: I'm Chase.
Courn: Let's get into it. Tell me you were the only Asian kid in your friend group without telling me you were. Everyone dressed up as Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Belle, Ariel, and you were Mulan. Like, let's be real. Like I liked Mulan, but like, no one wants to dress up as Mulan for Halloween.
Chase: Which is so wild because as adults, I feel like all we talk about is Mulan. Like, our groups, like Mulan was, one of the best, quote, princess, I guess she's a princess, she's a Disney princess, It was one of the best princess movies. Like that we still talk about. No one talks about Cinderella. No one talks about Snow White. Frozen was the one that put everyone on the map.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: But like Mulan was the one that we talked about for a long time.
Courn: As I think a kid who had a lot of internalized racism, I didn't want to like Mulan because I think that was just another way for kids to like reaffirm like, oh, you're like Mulan. You love Mulan. Like you're the Asian kid. And I'm like, I'm Korean.
Chase: I was just going to say!
Courn: I'm not that kind of Asian, but I know Mulan is like not exactly correct representations of like Chinese culture either, the whole dragon thing, they took that out of the live action valid reasons.
Chase: Mm-hmm.
Courn: But yeah, no I didn't want to dress up as Mulan as a kid but I'm like that's the only thing we got and I think that just leads you to a bigger conversation. I'm like what was Asian representation like growing up?
Chase: Mm-hmm.
Courn: And how is it today? Is it better? Not sure.
Chase: I mean, it's a I think it's the age-old discussion or maybe like the most current discussion and lens around representation, right? Like do we accept really mediocre representation because it's like, oh it's finally being represented, but it's like being represented in a really bastardized and like inaccurate way? Or is it the necessary first step in getting better representation. I mean both suck to be honest. Like they just there's not a good answer for it so I mean that's why we're here to discuss it. That's why we're here to talk about it. Our experiences.
Courn: Yeah. I just think it's interesting because I mean clearly we see these patterns with not just Asian people in rep, with also just a lot of people of color, with queer people, disabled people in the media, how things change. But I don't know, I think back, I think back a lot because I remember someone in college telling me that their favorite movie was Breakfast at Tiffany's.
Chase: Ooh.
Courn: And I think about that a lot. I'm just like, why would you say that to me? And for clarity, that movie has Mickey Rooney playing in yellow face, giant buck teeth and all.
Chase: Really?
Courn: He's painted a little bit tan, has the worst accent you've ever seen. He like actually serves no purpose to the movie other than to be a racist trope and it's literally just a white dude, a very famous white dude to add. And people are like oh yeah, I think we've changed so much since then and then we look at like Emma Stone in Aloha and like Scarlett Johansson and the Ghost in the Shell. Like playing these Asian characters, like literally yellow facing to play these roles.
Chase: Yeah. That's wild, I have not seen Breakfast at Tiffany's for numerous reasons, because I don't watch any movies really. But-
Courn: It's old. It's real old.
Chase: For sur,e but like that wasn't that long ago. That actor's still alive.
Courn: I don't think he is.
Chase: When did he die?
Courn: Is he not dead yet? I think that movie came out like what in the 1960s or we gotta fact check this.
Chase: Oh he died in 2014.
Courn: Good riddance.
Chase: 10 years ago. That's not that long ago though.
Courn: No.
Chase: Like the fact that he was born in 1920, starred in a movie, and only died 10 years ago, like that's very close to our lifetime to still have that be in play.
Courn: Correct. And I think that's like the biggest extreme that most people can be like, oh, like that's so gross. Like, of course we shouldn't dress up as Asian people. But then I think there's like all these necessary steps that have to happen before we get like good rep. Like I think about like in the 2000s, like we didn't have as much white people playing Asian roles, but we had Asian people playing very stereotypical roles of Asian people, like literally living tropes, like serving no purpose other than the movie to have a gong when they walk in. Like I think 16 Candles, Long Duk Dong or Long?
Chase: The restaurant?
Courn: No, he's a character, He's the neighbor next door. His name is Long Duk Dong. And he just like, I think he's just crushing on her or something.
Chase: It's been a long time since I've seen that movie.
Courn: Yeah, but every time he walks in, they hit the gong.
Chase: Oh my gosh.
Courn: He talks in a horrible accent. I feel so bad for this man that has to live with this on his imdb!
Chase: Yeah!
Courn: It's horrible!
Chase: And it's a white man playing that role?
Courn: No no no no, it's an asian!
Chase: Okay, but it's like a very very bad represented-
Courn: Yes!
Chase: Okay!
Courn: And I would say that's like the bulk of like movies I watched growing up. And then I think of movies like Mean Girls, like directed by Tina Fey that just absorbently has so much Asian stereotypes written into the two Asian sisters that literally just sleep with the coach.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: And like that's just a representation you got of East Asian people specifically. We did not see any South Asian rep really at all.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: And then we look further and like I think into like the 2010s to now like we see Asians playing lead roles like I think of like the live action Mulan, but then we found out that actually the production crew is predominantly white people. All the creative people, the people working on wardrobe are white and that's very weird. And then now we're like, oh, we're finally starting to see Asian people like in front of the camera, behind the camera, but I'm like, is it always perfect rep? No. And I think that's a lot of the problem too that we're now in this part where there's not enough Asian rep out there, particularly for South Asians. So at any time one does come out, it has to be this like big groundbreaking piece. And I just want to get to a place where we can be like, oh, we can have really shitty movies. We can have very hyper-genreized movies. We can have stupid comedic movies like Joyride. I watched that the other day. I'm like, that's great. It centers around Asian women going on this trip together. It's pretty much a Hangover for Asian women and I'm like, why don't we have more stuff like that?
Chase: Yeah. We should come back real fast to mean girls because that's probably the film I can give the most opinion on. But you mentioned that because like I forgot about the two Asian characters like the two girls who sleep with the coach because my mind immediately went to Kevin G as like the Asian representation but then I was like they give him some of the stereotypes but like not really, not as many as that, but then I was like is this man even from India like where is he from I was like where's the actor from he's Canadian.
Courn: Okay, but like is he of like Indian ancestry?
Chase: That's what I'm trying to look up and see. Cause I think that alone is just like, again, such a why like?
Courn: I think that leads me to a whole conversation too about like Asian people playing different Asian people. And like I know people loved Crazy Rich Asians and I think my hot take is that they literally got every random Asian actor, like every random East Asian actor in Hollywood and like default made them Chinese. And it was so unhinged to me because I'm like looking at all these guys and I'm like you're not Chinese. She's not Chinese. Like what? And I'm like I think you're adding to the confusion that all Asian people look the same when you cast them all to play the same race. Like I know there's definitely nuances to that. Like I don't think it matters for every single role that you have to get everyone that perfectly matches that cultural background. But I'm like, if you're gonna make a movie centering around Asian culture, I think you should cast the right race.
Chase: Absolutely. Well, maybe we should even go back to like the roots of all this. It's like, why we don't even get good representation? Because now we've got to, we're at a point where it's like, we recognize the inappropriate representation. And it's almost like, rather than being like, okay, what is an appropriate like couple steps to improve? I feel like in general and population is like, oh, we got to go do a full opposite, full 180. Like it has to be perfect now, rather than just being like, okay, can we maybe get one step better and more accurate? Okay, then the step from there, because it's not going to change overnight. And trying to push the fact that it needs to be like perfect or it gets canceled immediately is like also not helpful at progressing good representation.
Courn: Correct. And I think that's been the case for a lot of like Asian media that's come out in the last like 5 years. Like I know people have really mixed thoughts on like To All The Boys I've Loved Before, Like Never Have I Ever, like just these kind of like shows that are for teenagers that feature Asian girls and people are like, oh I don't feel like this is perfect rep and I'm just like, but like it's a young adult children's show. I don't know what people are expecting, like they're also different types of media, like I also don't feel like, I think this goes for any like marginalized people like, I don't want to have to have my trauma on display for it to be like a good movie or a good representation, like I think it ties into we deserve shitty stuff too we deserve entertaining content that doesn't focus on hardship.
Chase: True. And always like the stereotypical tropes and arches, story arcs, any of those things.
Courn: Yeah. And I'm like, and I love, I love a good movie that talks about stuff like Minari does a really great job of that. I feel like Parasite definitely touches on a lot of the poverty and class struggles in Korea. Like those movies kill it. But I'm just like, I don't know. I saw Monkey Man a couple months ago or a couple weeks ago when that came out. It is so freaking good.
Chase: Yeah?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Okay. Add it to the list that I'll never see. I'm just kidding.
Courn: It's just like a superhero movie, like in Indian culture.
Chase: Nice.
Courn: And it's so gripping, like it is so great. And I was like, man, I just want to see more stuff like this. Like, I just want to see Asian people in Hollywood making cool shit. Like.
Chase: Absolutely. Yeah. The only reason I make jokes about movies folks is because my ADHD does not enjoy sitting for long periods of watching a movie in a theater. But I do wonder how much plays into that of like, I'm just tired of seeing the same old movies. Like that's, that's probably another thing where it's like it's just not interesting enough to even like sit through and push through all of that because it is kind of the same. You brought up a good point about like actors and actresses and their backgrounds and like their family of origin. They always have to play roles that are popular, right? They're not really allowed to like be whatever and I think that's kind of the point of media and entertainment. It's like kind of flipping these narratives and stories and like being given things that are not always realistic but not offensive and not disrespectful. Like, these are always just rooted in and you know-
Courn: There's definitely a line!
Chase: White lens and white expectations and just like the American lens with things. So like yes we want to see different actors with different backgrounds and identities but like let them play other roles. Like we don't always have to give them like you said the Asian stereotypical good at school, and like suddenly doesn't want to go to college, or like whatever these tropes are we could go into those so.
Courn: Yeah, I think we have a lot of grace like I think some people hold all these actors accountable and I do hold a lot of the white people accountable. I don't hold a lot of Asian people accountable for playing roles because that quite literally is all there was.
Chase: I wasgonna say, they gotta take what they can get at some point.
Courn: Yeah, like I'm gonna be honest with you, like 10 years ago, the only roles you'd get as an Asian person was just like, oh yes, the dragon lady villain. Like you have like a-
Chase: A samurai!
Courn: Yes, we have the samurai martial arts master, like Jet Li, Jackie Chan, like Bruce Lee.
Chase: Yep, yep.
Courn: That's literally all you get. We have the overly sexual Asian women, which is I feel like what we see in all those 2000s rom-coms, like Mean Girls. And then we see, oh, the very nerdy Asian boy, like Long Duk Dong. And then we see, I think particularly with South Asian people we get to see this perpetual foreigner, like owns an Indian restaurant owns a quickie mart. Like or just like oh you're Pakistani, oh you're a terrorist, and we quite literally see so many like.
Chase: We have to always make jokes about that.
Courn: Yes. So many South Asians, just the only media that they get is literally being a terrorist for some white person storyline. Like we can go into like, I'm not going to go into it because it's not my culture. How harmful just the word terrorist can be and being used on Middle Eastern and Asian people.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: And putting that even aside, just like those are the roles you get.
Chase: Yeah. How terrible!
Courn: And like sometimes it hasn't changed, but like, that's what you got.
Chase: Not me crushing in the movie, Charlie's Angels as a kid, having a crush on, what was it? Lucy Liu's character.
Courn: Oh my God. This is, okay, this is completely unrelated, but I still vividly remember me and my friend group in like middle school because they were all white and they were like oh trying to decide what their celebrity lookalikes were. People are like, oh, like you're such a Rachel.
Chase: Sure.
Courn: You know, like, oh, you look like, you know, Drew Barrymore. They get to me.
Chase: Uh-huh. Uh-oh.
Courn: And the first time my friend goes, oh, I think you look like, literally only knows one Asian person.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Lucy Liu. Respectfully, I do not deserve that compliment. I do not like anything like Lucy Liu. And then my other friend corrected was like, oh, more like Wendy Wu!
Chase: *Gasps*
Courn: Which Brenda Song also looks nothing like her. Which then it dawned on me that Wendy Wu feels like rhyming namesake of Lucy Liu, which even makes it even worse. But yeah.
Chase: Especially with like I feel like the Asian accent.
Courn: Yes.
Chase: You know, yeah. And like how some letters sound.
Courn: But I do remember like friends being like, I'll be like, oh, there's not enough Asian people in media. And they're just like, oh, Wendy Wu!
Chase: Jackie Chan!
Courn: Mulan. And I'm like, it is like the same 3 tropes. I'm like.
Chase: Okay, but could you list, let's go with 3. Could you list 3 Hawaiian actors off the top of your head?
Courn: Probably not. No, also I'm bad with names so that probably doesn't help.
Chase: That’s okay. I'm not trying to put you on the spot.
Courn: But I'm like, I don't know about indigenously, Hawaiian because I'm just like, I know a lot of like Islander like Jason Momoa, you think of like the Rock and stuff and I feel like those are the popular like big buff Islander dudes.
Chase: Two, two big buff Island dudes.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Cool. And now of course we've got Moana.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Which not to shit on Moana. Moana's great.
Courn: It is great.
Chase: I love the movie, but.
Courn: It's animated.
Chase: Yeah.It's not a real human.
Courn: Yeah, I feel that way about Turning Red too. I think that movie's cute too, but I'm like, they're not real people.
Chase: Yep, Lilo and Stitch.
Courn: Yeah, okay, Lilo and Stitch kinda goes hard.
Chase: Oh no, it goes hard, I love it. I'm not trying to take it down, but that's the representation for even just Oceania, like Polynesian, dare I say Pacific Islander. It gets even worse on that side. Not to say like me too, but I was thinking when we were preparing this episode, I was just god, Jason Momoa, The Rock, Bruno Mars. Those are probably the 3 mainstream names that you could name that are not like maybe a little bit smaller but like that's like big, big names and so how often do those yeo dudes let's just talk about Jason Momoa and The Rock, like they get the same roles too.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Right? It's always the big buff guy. It's always the warrior. Always got to be shirtless. Always got to have minimal clothes. Gotta like kind of be the weird guy that suddenly gets accepted because he's got a superpower or has like something special, you know?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Like that's about it. Blue Hawaii, I haven't seen it, but like we got issues there too but again it's like those movies are also still threaded into the culture and like talked about but it's like they're not good.
Courn: No, and I feel like they're very much just from this like orientalist perspective.
Chase: Yes.
Courn: Like what does Asian and AAPI culture look like from a Western perspective? And that's exactly what I feel like those roles are. And yeah, we haven't come anywhere really with Islander roles.
Chase: No. I mean, it's always tied to like the Vietnam War. I feel like World War II is always tied to the wars, right? And that's like really the only thing that put Hawaii on the map for a lot of stuff. I mean, we can even just talk about freaking Elvis and how much of a problem that is, but we don't need to go there. So yeah, I mean like no real good representation on my side of the AAPI umbrella.
Courn: Yeah and I think that's what just like, I don't know, not enough people talk about like I think you'll hear that like oh this was the first year that some Asian Americans won some big awards which also it wasn't. Darren Criss also won an award before just gonna acknowledge that but also when we talk about all this rising rep I feel like people fail to mention that it's only East Asian people. It's always East Asian people like some a lot of research is actually showing that we're going down on South Asian representation and no one knows if that's a correlation. Clearly, it's not like representation is a pie. You get some, you don't. But it does feel like Hollywood seems to think, oh, if we make a movie about crazy rich Asians, we don't need to make a movie about Indian culture. We chose our Asian.
Chase: We gotthe Asian check. We're good for the next couple of years.
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: And I think there's definitely a fascination too with like East Asian culture at the moment. Like definitely with like Korean culture and Japanese culture.
Chase: I was just gonna say for you, what grouping would be included in East and like kind of West and South Asian?
Courn: Yeah, no, I mean I'm not sure if I know exactly all the lines, but when I'm talking East Asian, it is specifically like Korean, Japanese, Chinese. Even though China is like kind of everywhere, people consider that to be East Asian. Then you can get into like the formalities of like what you consider, like West, South, even like Southeast. I typically just group a lot of South Asians together just because I feel like they all do not get rep and it feels like it's a growing category, which I feel like is everyone from like Pakistan, India, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Cambodia, Laos, like Thailand, Vietnam. Like there's a lot in there that kind of just gets distilled as like India and the Vietnam war.
Chase: Right.
Courn: Those are the two topics you get. It's like Bollywood and Vietnam.
Chase: Right. And that's kind of why I wanted to ask that and bring that up because it's important to list those and name those and put those things on the map and bring them into discussion.
Courn: Yeah. And that's also not an exhaustive list.
Chase: Of course. No. And that's not to say this is it definitively, but when we talk about these groupings, this is relatively what we're talking about. And there's some crossover. There's always going to be some that float in different groups, but that's the region in which we're referring to. We don't have identities to, of course, speak for all those, but that's the groupings in which we often interact with and talk about.
Courn: And to your point, that doesn't even include Pacific Islanders. I feel like in my research for this episode and looking at stuff, I didn't see that mentioned. People consider that a whole other group, which, yeah, there's a lot of Pacific Islanders that don't feel like they fit under the Asian umbrella. But then we look into that specific representation. There's even less.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: So it's really disheartening.
Chase: Yeah. And like Oceana is like the, what I've heard is like kind of the biggest term and we can, we're obviously getting off tangent, but like, yeah, there's a lot within that we can break into so I mean there's no representation or, I don't know, if no representation is the right word other than it is very hard to find representation in America or in American media because I'm consuming a lot of American media. I don't know that I consume a lot of international media. And so I imagine, you know, movies and media with those actors is probably easier to find in regions closer to those countries. But even then, like, we got that freaking internet people. Why can't I get access to this very easy? Why is it not like talked about more?
Courn: Yeah, I agree. And I will say like I think on an international level like from a Western international level, we are very lacking which I think definitely gets centered as the standard of what is international. Like-
Chase: We, we get centered as a standard which is terrible. America is in a terrible standard.
Courn: Yeah, you go to any of these countries, I can guarantee you there's so many local filmmakers like making wonderful projects. I'm just like, don't get the amplification. There's like, I'm just like, even Netflix, how many movies there's going to watch I'll hear about like from TikTok. That's like, Oh, watch this, like, you know, gay Vietnamese romance between these two girls. And like, I go to look it up. I can't even watch it in my area. And I'm like, what? And I can't, I can't rent it. I can't do anything. And it's just like-
Chase: So now you've got to go buy a VPN. Now you got to do all these, you got to jump through all these hoops. And at the end of the day no one's gonna do that. The very few people who are gonna do that it's like really hard to even have access to it so even just having conversations to make it more accessible. Let's not let's not even talk about accurate and good authentic representation, how about we just get access to it? Like that's even a could be even, like a first step to talk about more, getting access. Going back to Lilo & Stitch because it is a banger of a movie, it definitely skewed my own perspective of my own culture because like that was like the main exposure I got as a kid to kind of like my own culture not even like authentic stuff, like my family kind of sheltered me from a lot of the authentic like Hawaiian culture, values, etc, and so like I really did think that some points like that was what it was like that’s-
Courn: Ohana means family!
Chase: Truly I'm over here like-
Courn: This is surfing 101!
Chase: Yeah! That's all it takes to be Hawaiian. Look at Lilo and Stitch. That's it.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Like terrible and so like having like realizing that later and almost having to like unpack that and be like no, it's not, that's not everything. It was still exciting at the time because obviously they had the children's chorus from one of the big Hawaiian schools doing stuff and that's great, but such a small sliver in everything else when I probably could not have even named other movies about Hawaii right until Moana.
Courn: I mean, I don't think, I could I couldn't list a single Korean movie until I became an adult right because it it didn't exist in a way that was like available to me like I just had to settle for like Chinese or Japanese representation. Like I was just like, oh, Mulan's close enough. Like Jake Long, the American dragon.
Chase: Oh, I love that show.
Courn: Such a bop. I love.
Chase: Wasn't the music really good too?
Courn: Yes. *in singsong* He's the American dragon. *in singsong*
Chase: That's right.
Courn: It's a white guy singing it though.
Chase: Of course.
Courn: So.
Chase: Of course.
Courn: I do remember the music video. It's a white guy.
Chase: Of course.
Courn: But, that went good. I love that show. I think, it was the show, that was like the adventures of Jackie Chan.
Chase: Probably, probably.
Courn: Yeah, Samurai Jack, so good. One of the best animations of all time. Also, not Korean. And then we had like Fresh Off the Boat, and I was like, I was really into that show for a couple of years because that was like the only Asian sitcom I feel like we had, aside of being a guest episode where they would go to a Chinese restaurant. That's the representation you get.
Chase: Of course.
Courn: What, in every single show!
Chase: It's always the greasy takeout, hidden hole in the wall spot. Oh, they got the best Kung Pao Chicken.
Courn: Just the most atrocious accent every time. I actually think the first time I saw a Korean person in media that I could actually point out was Sun and Jin in Lost. Which isn't like the greatest rep, but there's some aspects of Korean culture that are intertwined in that very weird show. But I did find out something recently that makes me laugh so hard. Apparently Daniel Dae Kim, he is not fluent in Korean. And if you've watched that show, like he actually doesn't speak any English until like later in the show.
Chase: What, I’ve never seen it!
Courn: He's supposed to be like, okay, yeah, he's supposed to be fluently Korean and like his wife, Sun speaks some English. And does most of the-
Chase: Like that's the character?
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Korean character.
Courn: And his wife does most of the translations for him, but in real life he did not speak Korean and obviously watching this younger, I didn't speak Korean. How would I be able to know? I don't know why my dad didn't say something, but apparently it's like a very funny joke in Korea because his Korean was so bad in the role.
Chase: They didn't give him like a voiceover of someone else sounding similar.
Courn: No, no, no, no! His intonation is so wrong and he's supposed to be like only speaking Korean. He has so much like parts in the show like I don't know no one cared enough and like apparently like his wife Sun who's like actually a Korean-American actor and she's fully fluent. She's actually super big in Korea and she was in a lot of movies and shows at the time. She's completely fluent. Her having to act, that's completely normal in every shot.
Chase: Wowwww!
Courn: Him speaking is just horrible Korean in her speaking. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, Ne!
Chase: Sure.
Courn: Ne, Yeobo!
Chase: *Laughs*
Courn: Like, it's just so bad.
Chase: Ooh, ooh.
Courn: And I don't know why, because I just really, that was like the only representation I saw of a Korean person. And he actually looks a lot like my dad. So initially when I saw him, I didn't really know what Korean people looked like. I was like, oh that looks like my dad!
Chase: So you got a hot dad?
Courn: He don't look like Daniel Dae Kim…
Chase: Just kidding!
Courn: But like he has the same face structure.
Chase: For sure, you mentioned that, that's like really what Koreans look like, not like the K-pop version that we see.
Courn: I'm like, yeah, Daniel Dae Kim is actually hot. My dad, no, but!
Chase: And that's a hot take, Neurotakes! *Laughs*
Courn: *Laughs* But yeah!
Chase: I know you have a lot of opinions on the word oriental. I know, it's, it's quite complex. I don't know. How do you think like that plays into a lot of media representation? Where do you start with that?
Courn: Yeah, I will say just on the word oriental, I do have a lot of opinions on that word just because like that is a period of time. Like, objects can be from the oriental period. Decor can be oriental. I don't really think you should use that unless you are Asian. But yeah, people cannot be oriental in this day and age. Like that doesn't make sense. That's like calling someone kind of like Soviet, but even way longer ago. Like imagine calling a normal Russian person today like Soviet. Doesn't quite make sense. Like they don't live in Soviet Russia anymore.
Chase: Gotcha.
Courn: So it's just really outdated. I just feel like it also just plays into this perpetual foreigner stereotype of like, oh, they're from the Orient. They're not from here. They're so exotic.
Chase: Well, it's kind of exclusionary too, is my understanding, right? Like we talked about Asia and how big that actually that umbrella really is and like trying to like group up what is typically considered in the Orient is like still very exclusionary for the rest of Asia and like it's just trying to like further divide groups essentially.
Courn: Correct. It's also, it's just not accurate for most Asian people. It doesn't make sense regardless because it's from a different time period.
Chase: Right. Because you're saying they use in the context of describing people's looks, I imagine.
Courn: Yes. Like oh they look oriental. What the fuck does that mean?
Chase: It's cringy to hear you even say it. I'm like, god!
Courn: I've had so many people say that to me.
Chase: Oh yeah, of course!
Courn: It's always older people too. Like I've had old people drop the G word on me.
Chase: Ooooh, yeah.
Courn: Which I'm like, that actually is like a fun thing for me now.
Chase: You don't want to reclaim it?
Courn: Yeah. No, just because in learning Korean, I was very quick to realize as soon as you do the lessons on, oh, how to say where you're from somewhere. If you're say you're from the US, you say, 미국 사람이에요 (miguk saramieyo). Which means I am from the US.
Chase: Yeah, it does. Yeah, Listen to that.
Courn: And if you're from Korea, you'd say, 한국 사람이에요 (hanguk saramieyo). And it turns out they just were reading that first word. When someone said they were English, like 미국 (miguk), like just taking the last part and saying, Oh, I am that word. When actually that just means like, that's just part of a word to say you're from somewhere. So I think that's an interesting like origin of where that's from, but people weaponize that. I'm not going to go around saying that word on its own, but learning Korean, I was like, oh, am I saying the G word?
Chase: What?!
Courn: Yes, it turns out that's where it's from. It's from Korean, which I think is interesting.
Chase: So in Korea, it would be said almost like no questions.
Courn: Yeah, you're saying where you're from.
Chase: So typical.
Courn: Like Korean is hanguk. Like that's the ending. miguk, yeonguk.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Like US, English. Like that's...
Chase: Wow.
Courn: And that's a very, I don't know, a normal ending consonant. So.
Chase: The more you know.
Courn: Yeah, but now it's a slur.
Chase: Language lessons with Courn! *ding*
Courn: Yeah, and that's not even getting into all the other words in Korean that sound like bad words.
Chase: Right. Right.
Courn: But that's for another day. I did, I don't know if you ever watched that documentary that was called The Problem with Apu. No. It's about the guy who does the voicing for the convenience store worker in the Simpsons. His name's Apu, like a very typical Indian name. And the voice actor, I think up until 2020, was a white man. And that documentary actually is what got them for him to step down, for him to finally say, oh, I'm uncomfortable playing an overly Indian accent for a race I do not belong to. And I think it's interesting, like even in animation, that white people were playing Asian people. And I mean, that's a bigger problem with so many, like, I don't know, marginalized characters of white people voicing them and how problematic that is, especially when they put on, like they could just talk normal.
Chase: The accent.
Courn: No, no, no, no, no, no. Like you know exactly how it's gonna sound when a white person plays an Asian person in a show.
Chase: And guess who only is entertained by that?
Courn: White people.
Chase: Yeah. Not us.
Courn: Yeah. The whole documentary was so good because just talking about like how that was the like cornerstone representation for an Indian boy growing up was people voicing like the Simpsons character and how much that hurts, like that convenience store market representation. It just gets me!
Chase: Because it's not providing any other opportunities for stories. Now is this a common thing for those people? Maybe, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not I'm not really one to say but like there's so much more to life and like storytelling than this one specific like interaction that might be common in certain parts of the world or certain parts of America.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: But like there's literally hundreds of other storylines you could be telling.
Courn: I'm just saying like Bollywood is like a very rich like area to explore in terms of Indian media. There's so much outside of that. I think people really just, they only see Life of Pi, Slumdog Millionaire, which I think are good movies. I definitely think they're also have a lot of like trauma dumping about Indian culture, but it's pretty wild.
Chase: I didn't know about that documentary. I'm gonna have to watch it.
Courn: Yeah, I just love that shit. I also just consume so much media all the time. So anytime there's a new documentary out, I am watching it.
Chase: Do you think that's part of your special interest?
Courn: Oh, yes.
Chase: Okay. That's probably why.
Courn: History has always been like a weird secondary special interest of mine, like I got really into like AP world history which then evolved into like media representation especially just, I wanted to see more rep that looked like me so I just kept watching more and more Asian media and then being like, this still isn’t right!
Chase: You can sit through movies and not get bored and fidgety?
Courn: I usually have to do something while I'm watching them.
Chase: And then you don't get more distracted by the thing you're doing?
Courn: No, it helps me focus. I'm that type of ADHD where I need to do lots of things but I can't do too much. I feel like I've been stuck in that habit where you watch TV and then you're scrolling on your phone and then you're eating food and then you're also doing a craft and that's too much. Even though my brain likes it, I don't pay attention to anything. But I'm like, I don't know, I like to do stationary tasks.
Chase: I'm impressed.
Courn: In front of it. I don't know, like a color or like paint or-
Chase: That's a good one. Cause it's like mindless. You don't have to like-
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Just like do whatever.
Courn: I just love movies and TV shows. Like I consume so much. So that's why I just always think this topic is so interesting to me. Cause I'm just like, I feel like I've consumed so much, or at least like American media. That's what's like readily accessible to me. I've consumed so much. And I'm like, why can I only find a handful of representations that I'm like are good or everything comes with a disclaimer? Like people are like, oh, have you seen like Kim's Convenience? And I'm like, yeah, I like that show. But like he owns a convenience store, which like is a realistic story I feel like for a lot of like Asian immigrants, but it's overdone. He also speaks with an accent that he does not have, even though I love that show, but we got Simu from that show when he was in the Barbie movie so it panned out.
Chase: He's cool, that actor.
Courn: I do like him.
Chase: Yeah he's cool. Hopefully he's not problematic.
Courn: You know.
Chase: Maybe. I don't know if anyone's perfect though right?
Courn: No, I think he's problematic. He isn't speaking on genocide or anything. I think being in a big part like in media right now, I think a lot of particularly East Asian people in Hollywood have been really silent about advocating for Palestinian people so. The Barbie movie was mid but-
Chase: Yeah it was fine. I mean I was not a big fan of Barbie, like, growing up.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: So... Awkwafina.
Courn: Ooh! That one hurts!
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Awkwafina took, like, 10 steps back for all of us, respectfully. And why do they keep casting her in stuff? Like...
Chase: Because she's... she says punchy stuff. They give her punchy characters that have shock humor and I feel like shock humor almost always hits no matter how offensive.
Courn: Correct. For clarity, Awkwafina has been like publicly accused of using a blaccent in so much of her roles. She's even admitted that she definitely takes on a persona that's not necessarily hers.
Chase: Because of where she's from. She is from somewhere on the East Coast, right?
Courn: I'm not even sure. I feel like that got debunked. That she didn't actually grow up around Black folks.
Chase: Oh, but she tries to claim it, I think.
Courn: Yeah. It also just like isn't an excuse because it's not like she talks like that all the time and that's the problem. People started like dissecting interviews and stuff so she has like a persona that's very much speaking in a blaccent in all of her movies and then she has roles where she doesn't at all like the farewell. She doesn't talk like that.
Chase: Right.
Courn: Then you see her in freaking Ariel and the Little Mermaid. I don't know why she's talking like a raspy voice.
Chase: That raspy voice character is really taken off too.
Courn: Yes, it's very problematic. I just feel like Black community members have been saying like there's something not right about this and also there's just like a context to of Asian people using a blaccent and misappropriating Black culture as their own.
Chase: Yeah, do you feel like Asians get away with the blaccent more though because it's almost like adjacent and?
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: Which is so, so bad like I don't know, the blaccent is so problematic for so many reasons and I can honestly say I used to do it so like it's not good, not proud of it, but like we're here trying to like not we, but like in general are ready to take on these pieces of Black culture, but like not actually uplift Black culture and progress them past things. So that's why it's the issue. And that's why even when someone like Awkwafina brings on these accents, it's not okay.
Courn: No, and there was like really no retribution.
Chase: No, it's in fact, it's gotten her more stuff. She's getting more popular.
Courn: I think that's the thing too. It's also people are just like, oh, like you can debate what or not a Blaccent is, but when people are telling you it is, that are from the Black community, you should probably listen. But I also just think there's this dissonance where I think so much of like Gen Z slang is actually like Black vernacular and no one wants to have-
Chase: Oh yeah!
Courn: No one wants to talk about that like so much gay vernacular, it's just-
Chase: Slay!
Courn: Black vernacular.
Chase: Queen!
Courn: And it's like, it's taken me so much strength to not use those words because I hear them all the time!
Chase: Oh yeah!
Courn: I'm just, like oh I just want to repeat everything I hear, but I'm like, that's not for me.
Chase: It's not cool. It's really, that is a hard one to dig up. And like, you know, we all got stuff to work on, but yeah, once you start, once you see it though, it is very hard to unsee and like, you start realizing how many people do it or like, I don't know, I see a lot of times at work like white people run into a person of color and they start talking like them.
Courn: Yes!
Chase: And I'm just like ohhhh.
Courn: It hurts!
Chase: Granted I sometimes do it too. I'm a person of color but it doesn't make it okay but like sometimes it's that like almost code switching that you don't think about. For reference, Awkwafina was born in Stony Brook, New York.
Courn: Okay, I don't know enough about New York.
Chase: Which, I don't know enough about that, but she did have her original music career like start in Queens. So take that with what you will folks. She is Chinese, I believe according to Wikipedia.
Courn: Yes, she is.
Chase: So there you go. Good representation though and we'll flip the script real quick. Everything, Everywhere All At Once. Let's talk about that one.
Courn: Oh, that movie's great!
Chase: Great movie.
Courn: That's so great.
Chase: Why is it great? Give me your take.
Courn: Oooh, oooh.
Chase: Where do you start? I mean there's a lot to choose from, for sure.
Courn: Well also I just I love those directors.
Chase: Let's talk about that too.
Courn: I do like those guys, the Daniels.
Chase: The Daniels.
Courn: They also made the movie, Swiss Army Man with Daniel Radcliffe, which is a very funny movie. It doesn't have any Asian rep, it's just white people, but it's funny.
Chase: That's fine. But why is Everything, Everywhere, All at Once good for you? Like what makes it so good? Why do you go like, oh yeah that's a good one?
Courn: Yeah, I think it's hard for me just because like I am a film buff so I'm just like aesthetically.
Chase: Oh a film buff? Ooooh! *laughs*
Courn: Oooh! I'm like bougie about films, like I don't watch superhero movies like I like movies that have like visually are pretty and like have substance, like I want things in movies but that movie is very visually beautiful it's also so freaking absurd. Like there's just so much like weird humor in it.
Chase: It’s very weird.
Courn: I was just like guttural laughing the whole time because it's so weird. I'm also just like, I think there's a very nuanced take of like this mother daughter like Asian relationship of like, just this like I don't know, guilt you have.
Chase: Yep.
Courn: Like having your parents like coming over the country for you, making a better life for you and not really enjoying their life. Also just like we have a queer like daughter, like having to come out, like there's just so much nuances in this movie. But I think above all is that it's not entirely, I think, centered around, I don't know, the Asian experience. I think most people would find this movie relatable. Like most people find this mother-daughter dynamic to be very relatable.
Chase: Yeah, past race and sexuality, and all those things like that almost like that that dynamic is like relatable.
Courn: Like I think it's enhanced by it as an Asian person. I relate to this is so much, like they're not Korean but I'm like, oh I just, like owning the laundry mat, like all this like, I don't know just very subtle inclusions feel so relevant.
Chase: Mm-hmm. And what parent doesn't want a better life for the kid? Like majority of parents are always trying to give their kids a better life in some way shape or form. So again, yes, we've got the stereotypes with like you said the immigration piece but like yeah, great, great story and it didn't feel like in your face Asian or it didn't feel like in your face those things. Does that make sense?
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Where it was like almost like it just existed. Like it just was.
Courn: I also think they took back a lot of tropes too. Like I think it's very intentional in her past life that she's like a martial arts master.
Chase: Right.
Courn: It's hilarious. And it's just like, yeah, it's kind of for no reason. And I think someone off first glance would be like, oh, yeah, they just randomly put a martial arts trope in there. And I'm just like, no, it's very intentional. Yeah, it's like, that's the whole point. She's like a chef. Like, she's like a sushi chef. It's like all these very, like, funny, like, definitely plays on all these racial tropes and media but do I think that's the hallmark of all Asian representation in a movie? No. It is very much like a very East Asian representation but I'm like that got the ball rolling I think for me and like what I could expect. I'm like I want to see these very interesting movies.
Chase: It's possible for that type of representation to be a great movie and win awards. Didn't it win a bunch of awards?
Courn: I think so yeah.
Chase: I mean I can fact check that but I do feel like it. Yeah it won an Academy Award for Best Actress and there's like a bunch of other stuff in there. Also, I mean, those cast members are great. Michelle Yeoh.
Courn: Oh, yeah. She already was great, but I just like this ignited her career once again. And she's been in so many great stuff since.
Chase: Truly, truly, truly. What was the one with Ali Wong that Netflix won, like the neighbors where they had like the beef? Was it beef? It was Beef.
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Well, what's your thoughts on that one?
Courn: Okay. I liked that show, but I feel like I always had a disclaimer that one of the actors in it, like sexually assaulted a Black woman and then talked about it on a podcast. And then they willingly hired him to be in that show and had his artwork on all the slides. And that ruined the show for me because it is such a well thought out, hilarious show.
Chase: Get it.
Courn: That just happens to have Asian actors and doesn't, I feel like center around like Asian trauma. But they messed up with that one.
Chase: Fair.
Courn: Because they hired a literal sex offender.
Chase: That's fair. Also, wasn't David Choe like a problematic dude?
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Yeah. Okay. Do we like Steven Yeun?
Courn: I love Steven Yeun.
Chase: Steven Yeun? Is that how you say it?
Courn: I love Steven Yeun.
Chase: He’s so cute!
Courn: That's also one of the early people I feel like I saw in The Walking Dead, seeing an Asian person on screen and I was like, ohhh. Also, fun fact, when they, this may be a spoiler, but it also happened ike 10 years ago, when they killed him on screen, very violently with like a blunt object. They actually lost like a significant percentage of Walking Dead viewers.
Chase: Good, good.
Courn: Cause that's when I stopped. I couldn't watch an episode after he died.
Chase: You’re like well, all right, I'm done.
Courn: Yeah. And you can visually see the spike when people stopped watching the Walking Dead is when Steven Yeun's character died. So I like to think that Asians are holding up zombie shows.
Chase: Of course.
Courn: He was the best character by far.
Chase: They hold up everything. Just kidding.
Courn: *laughs* Yeah, physically.
Chase: *laughs* God, we didn't even get to talk about like Avatar, Last Airbender, all these other terrible cartoons that we probably grew up with.
Courn: Okay, I loved Avatar the cartoon.
Chase: It’s great, it’s great!
Courn: It's so good. Don't get me on the live action.
Chase: But again, that's the representation. There we go.
Courn: It is alot of like other worldly stuff. And I think that's what gets me. Like I love sci-fi stuff, but I think it hurts to know that I think Asian culture always has to come with this like spin of like, Mulan. It's just like there's special powers like Jake Long, American Dragon. Like there's always-
Chase: Legend of Korra fall in with that?
Courn: You know? Well, the Legend of Korra is under avatar. So yes. I just feel like there's always this mystical element, which I actually think there's a term for that when they combine fantasy with like Orientalism. It seems to romanticize parts of like Asian culture.
Chase: Absolutely, it always has to be the like, it's kind of like the, what is it? The spiritual Black Negro?
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Character trope, where there's always like that one character in the movies.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Oh, do they have a term for that for the Asian? Like kind of mystical Asian almost?
Courn: I mean, there is like the wise Asian, wise Asian man trope. It doesn't have a specific name, but just like, yeah, which like could be a samurai master. It also could be someone that's just like, I don't know.
Chase: The turtle in Kung Fu Panda.
Courn: Yes.
Chase: Oh, Kung Fu Panda.
Courn: Bruh. I saw that for my third grade birthday party.
Chase: I love that movie.
Courn: I didn't really like it that much, mainly because I just didn't like Jack Black's voice.
Chase: I was like, I think you have to like Jack Black.
Courn: But I also was just like the biggest hater as a kid. Like, I don't know, anything that was Asian, I just didn't want to associate myself with it and give more people reasons to bully me.
Chase: Yeah, absolutely. That's so terrible.
Courn: So I was just like, I don't like Kung Fu Panda. I don't like Mulan. Like, I freaking loved Mulan, but I would never admit that to anyone as a kid.
Chase: All the haters out there listening now, look where we at.
Courn: Yeah, and now here I am watching movies like Turning Red, like crying. Like, I don't know. I don't know if that's healing as an adult but we have a long way to go.
Chase: Probably. Okay wow we covered a lot of Asian movies and TV and media. I think that about wraps us up. I'm gonna go get me some Hawaiian punch, some tiki punch, and go watch Blue Hawaii. Okay, bye!
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!