Episode 15: This body is not 4 u!
Courn: Welcome to Neurotakes, this is Courn.
Chase: I'm Chase!
Courn: Let's get into it.
Chase: Let's get into it.
Courn: So, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to admit this, but when we first reconnected a couple of years ago, I was like really hesitant about you just because you told me you worked as a personal trainer and I was like oh, my red flags are going off, mainly just because I have some toxic workout people in my family that love that stuff, you were not like that, but!
Chase: Thanks!
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Is that the common misconception or is that the misconception about trainers? I know a lot of trainers suck and have like their whole personality built around them being a trainer, but like damn, that really be the vibe, huh?
Courn: It does and it's not a reflection of you because I feel like you've never literally given me that vibe since I've known you. But yeah, I feel like people who work out, like it literally is their whole personality and they cannot hang out with you without talking about like what they did at the gym, which like I don't know, it's kind of triggering for me when people just talk in depth about their workouts-
Chase: I agree, I agree!
Courn: What they're eating, and then just like also tell me that I need to go to the gym and then make comments about my weight or my body or like what going to the gym could do, and yeah that's a lot of people around me have said that stuff, so.
Chase: That's fair! I don't know-
Courn: But that's kind of sad that, that's, I don't know that's the representation or just like stereotype of when someone says they work as a personal trainer like or at a gym.
Chase: Yeah, because there's a lot of bad trainers out there and there's a lot of toxic trainers. I don't know if bad is the right word other more than toxic, like trainers are toxic for the most part. Mostly, because the health and wellness and fitness, it's mostly just health and fitness space is so like based on like white European beauty standards, to be honest. So there's that piece. So I think being like a woman of color, a queer woman of color, a disabled woman of color in the space, it's a very different lens to come out with things. Especially now that I have a better understanding of where people are coming from.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: It's definitely changed how I train people and like how I try to approach things with folks.
Courn: Mhmmm.
Chase: I don't know it's a complicated topic. Even just the relationship I've had with working out and my own body image and I'm sure you've got a complicated relationship as well. So we're getting into it today.
Courn: We are. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like it's more than just a reflection of individuals like working in the industry. It quite literally is the industry itself that I feel like is very flawed and I think a lot of that has to do with like I don’t know the marketing and entry points that people come into like the fitness and health industry. It's very much like, people, like you're fat, you need to get better, you need to eat healthier, what you're doing is bad, you look bad and you need to be healthy or you're gonna die. And it's very much like if you don't do this, you don't care about yourself, you don't care about your kids. It's just like very much like a guilt marketing. And I feel like all the beauty industry is like that too but the fitness one really gets me because it really just like I don't know critiques you as a person, it really diminishes all of your value to what you look like and we know obviously that your appearances are such a limited marker of what your health is.
Chase: Correct.
Courn: But that's kind of like the entry point for people. It's like, I don't know, if you're getting into health stuff, it's usually just like, oh, I, whatever, I look fat. I want to lose weight. My doctor told me my numbers aren't good. I have high cholesterol, stuff like that. And I think that puts people in a really hard spot wherever that is if that's your entry point, like you're coming in from a point I think of shame, and not always from a point of empowerment, which I think has been a new transition for me trying to get back into the fitness industry as an adult, it's really hard to not see all that stuff.
Chase: Oh absolutely, and it's never it's not going to change quickly but I'm kind of excited to get to talk about this more because I think there are a lot of toxic approaches to stuff that like really is harmful to people and just like needs to change on a lot of levels.
Courn: I think something that was really interesting to me was that like my mom really ingrained in me that like I needed to do so much cardio. Like she was always doing like Jillian Michaels videos. Did you ever watch those? Oh my God.
Chase: Feral, unhinged.
Courn: She's not like the most mean person you could watch, but like, god, does she hate fat people?
Chase: Pretty bad. Yes, yes.
Courn: And so very much, I just was always in the headset growing up that like I need to be doing tons of cardio all the time. I need to run and like, I don't know. I feel like actually like trying to get into my wellness the past couple years. I just realized like, oh, I actually don't really need to be doing that much cardio and shit. But that always just feels like that's a very thing like put on women. It's like go run on the treadmill for an hour and keep running and don't eat.
Chase: Yeah, I mean, we are just coming off like the gender episodes so we should absolutely talk about just the gender roles and stereotypes around working out. But you also talked about like the labels that come with healthy and obese and fat and I just want to touch on that because there's so much narrative around fat equaling lazy and stupid and gluttonous and no self-control, when that could not be farther from the truth. So we need to like touch on that a bit. It is not been the case like that has only been the narrative as enslaved Africans have come to America. I'm not gonna lie. Like there was literally at one point people were like, are people too skinny? Like there's there was like fears around like too skinny and now it's like fears around like too fat and like it always swings one way or the other so not being a historian on that, we can talk about that more later, but fat is not a marker of health. In fact, it doesn't account for like food access and food deserts, just access to any health care, like the cost it takes to be skinny or fat, like all these things. So let, where do we start? Where do we start, Courn? Where do we pick back up on this?
Courn: Well, I think I'm just gonna pick up on the thing that you said, like that not, you know, fat is a neutral word, but I also think it's interesting when people think that anyone can work out, anyone can lose weight when bodies are so different and I think that's something I didn't have context growing up like as someone who had a very like fast metabolism and that was definitely a privilege. Like I would just eat anything and like not gain weight. I am not like that as an adult. And so people just assume like, oh yeah, like you going to work out is the same as me. If I go hit the gym, you know, once a week, I'm going to lose a hundred pounds. It's not like that for everyone, but nor does anyone want to be like that or is their resting body at that size. Like there very much is all these standards that are just like very grossly intertwined with yes, being skinny is good, being fat is bad. And I think it's also the words people use, like I feel like the fitness industry loves to use the word obese. The medical industry loves that too. And I think that's like such a red flag. They just want to be like obesity is the number one epidemic in the US, that just stigmatizes what it means to be fat. When, there's just so many things that account for that. I think just in general, we need to talk about how it's a privilege to be even able to work out, to have the financial ability to go to a gym, to even have the time. When you have such a limited time as an adult, when you were working all day, you're taking care of kids, you're doing all these things. If you have a free hour a day and you have to spend that at the gym, like that's not accessible for everyone. Like so many people don't feel comfortable in gym spaces. They can't afford to get their own gym at home. Like the gym can feel very hostile for people. Even just seeing people who are incredibly fit, who are grunting and being weird. Like I've just always freaking hated the gym. They're also very inaccessible. And like, I just feel like as a disabled person who has like chronic fatigue and other things with hypermobility, it's like very stressful to go to the gym. It's very inaccessible. It's very loud. It's annoying. It's gross. Like-
Chase: Very overstimulating.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Half the stuff you can't always make work for your body too. Cause sometimes it's too big. Sometimes it's too short. Sometimes it's too wide. Sometimes it's too long.
Chase: And like, there's a lot of problems, absolutely.
Courn: Yeah! And I think it just all comes down to like with people not actually prioritizing what fitness is, like I feel like the fitness industry-
Chase: It's all looks!
Courn: Yes, it's become like what does it mean to be fit? Well it means to be skinny. It doesn't mean to be healthy, but what does it mean to be fit in a disabled body? What does it mean to be fit in a fat body?
Chase: I hate the term fit and fitness. I hate that!
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: And I do not use that in my practice, to be honest.
Courn: I'm like, what does that even mean? Like, is that a self-empowerment? Is it a visual standard? Because it feels like a visual standard of like, you look fit, like you look skinny, but buff? I don't know.
Chase: Absolutely. Well, I mean, as a trainer who. I've always just been a skinny person for most of my life. Guess what folks? It's not due to my workouts. Like I got some medical conditions that just make it really hard to put on weight and just like my metabolism like for me, my food doesn't get held in my body at the same way it does for other people. So a lot of people assume like oh this trainer's skinny like they're probably really fit, they're probably going to help me get the same way. But like skinny does not always equal healthy, folks. And like we need to stop assuming that just because someone looks skinny, they are a healthy person. Like health means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, especially when you factor in the disability side, when you factor in genetics and your family history, where you've come from, where your family originates, like healthy is very different and healthy it is not based on your looks, actually it's very intrinsic. And so it's been a really interesting conversation with people who work with me. And a lot of times they'll ask me like, what's your workout? What do you eat? And the reality is like, I just eat hot dogs, you know? Like honestly, I don't work out and I eat whatever the hell I want. And they're like, oh, it's just because you're young and so skinny and like no it's not it at all, and so like assuming that just because what I do for me and how I look is going to work for someone else is also very problematic and not true.
Courn: Those are all really freaking good points.
Chase: I got a lot of them. I've been thinking about this a lot because I have a lot of frustrations with my job and like the industry that I'm in but I really enjoy helping people become empowered and feel like they can do things because we do live in a society that is based a lot on abilities, but it's not always like the physical ability that creates empowerment. It's like kind of what that does to you mentally and emotionally that then allows you to do other things in life. And that is why I got back into training because I wasn't a trainer forever, this is kind of a 2 or 3 year thing that had been been back in and so like that's what I like to do and that's what I try to like teach people that I work with and even just the community around me, that it's not just about how buff and how fit you look like, that has nothing to do with it, but health and fitness are always together in the same category. There's no separation when there really should be. What about wellness? Is wellness even like a real thing? I don't like the term wellness. I think that's weird.
Courn: I don't even know what that means.
Chase: I don't know either, but I don't like it.
Courn: Yeah, I just think the idea of like fitness and wellness is interesting because it's like what does it mean to be well? What does it mean to be fit? Because respectfully, when I was in the fittest of my life, which was in like high school, right out of high school, like I was very thin, I was, you know, I could run like 10 miles. I ran long distance in high school. You would have considered me very fit. I was not doing well. I was like in heavily toxic patterns of disordered eating. I did not feel well, but like I don't know I feel like I just got so many compliments at that time. Oh you look great, you're so thin, like that's what like make sure you hold on to this body as you get older and shit like that.
Chase: Enjoy it while you're young!
Courn: Yeah, it's just, it's so toxic. And I think it put me in a really bad place that when inevitably I did gain weight as a young adult. Because, yeah, a lot of people hit that second puberty. Second puberty hit me hard. Grew a C-cup from a double A. No one saw that coming. With that came like 60 pounds.
Chase: I saw that in college y'all. It was wild times. I was like whoa! Look at Courn!
Courn: I don't know how genetics work but that's how mine did and it was like really disorienting, because I was just like I was eating the same foods I was all through high school. Like I was a little bit less active, but yeah, just instantly gained like 50 pounds and the way people treat you differently. Just instantly like shit. The way people look at your body, the way people are like, oh, you look so much better in high school. I was a child. I was a literal prepubescent child. Like, yeah.
Chase: Yeah, I would agree though. Like the times that I worked out the most in my life, I was so unhealthy for a lot of different markers. And like, these are just markers that I kind of made for myself now. Like one, my mobility was trash. My joints had no range of motion. Like I couldn't really get into a lot of positions because I was just a meathead doing no mobility. I drank like crazy. So like talk about the alcoholism or at that point and like how I was dealing with my problems like oh, I worked out so hard and like whatever I'm a party on the weekends, you know and then it was just like grind Monday through Thursday and Friday after work get a workout in so I can go drink and it's just like that I think we can all agree is unhealthy, but I was working out like crazy. Like I have never felt better in my body right now, working out as least often as I do and eating the way I am. But like I would consider myself very healthy right now versus back then lifting like weights like crazy, meal prepping, doing all that, it's like just as toxic. My therapist actually had to tell me that orthorexia is an eating disorder and it's the obsession of eating healthy.
Courn: Yeah it is!
Chase: I absolutely had that!
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Absolutely. Did you know that?
Courn: Yeah I did because I went down the same route.
Chase: Yeah, tell me more!
Courn: I obviously have problems with ARFID, but I also just have problems with that as well as like disordered eating and focusing on healthy food. So this is a very common thing with a lot of people who are autistic, ADHD, on the neurodivergent umbrella is like I don't know, having really bad impulse control and a more likelihood to get into addictive behavior. And I'm like this with everything. It's why I don't drink. It's why I don't do drugs because I can't do anything in moderation. And I found out it was the same for working out. Like once I started in early college, like I was working out all the time. I wasn't even losing weight because I would like have these horrible crash periods where I would just like not do anything and then eat a bunch of food. I was literally just going through these like binge eating patterns of just overworking out. And I was just obsessing over it. Like all I thought about was just like, oh, I want to look skinny. I want to look better. I was assigning moral values to food. Like this food's good. This food's bad. Like it's a very slippery slope and people are like, oh, you're going to have too much of a good thing and all of that. But like the fitness industry, it's not necessarily always a good thing. It's like pushing your body past these limits. Like mentally I was at the worst I'd ever been in my life.
Chase: It's unnatural.
Courn: Yeah, but as soon as you get some validation like I very quickly lost like I think 5 pounds and this is when I was in college and I remember someone saying like, oh like you look really good, like you look like the right amount of like full figured and I was like oh yeah, like that's the compliment I wanted to get and I was like I gotta keep doing this and then I just crashed.
Chase: If there's one thing I want more people to know about it's the fact that we as a society need to stop giving unsolicited comments about people's weight, like just point blank we need to stop doing it. It's so harmful and I know people are meaning well by it, but it's just perpetuating more dangerous toxic and harmful behaviors and practices.
Courn: Correct!
Chase: Because I also got the same validation when I was working out a bunch and doing all these things. And then I got the validation from society that I was doing something good. And my obsession was then what my value as a human was. And so it just created this really vicious cycle that was hard to break.
Courn: Yeah, I think the value piece is so important too because like full transparency, my mom has been stuck in cycles of like very disordered eating and working out her entire life, especially as an adult. And that's just what I grew up with. So she was always on very restrictive diets where she'd be like, I'm only eating a single piece of meat a day. She did Nutrisystem, Weight Watchers-
Chase: Oh my!
Courn: Everything under the sea. She would do cardio for hours on end and it still wouldn't work for her. And she would have these horrible cycles of gaining weight, rapidly losing weight. And like that does a lot to a young child who grows up and sees that because I just like instantly as a kid, I just assigned like my, my value and like my worth as a person was how I looked if I was fit and skinny and that works well when you are those things. And as soon as you aren't, it's really bad. But even before that, just like the values you will perpetuate in fat phobia and making people around you feel so bad about it, it's so toxic. And I just feel so bad because my mom is still stuck in those cycles. She's still very much like, I need to lose weight and does these very unsustainable diets, insane working out, and I just don't know how to be like, please don't mention any of that to me. I don't want to hear about your diet. Like it's triggering to me. Like I don't need to hear it.
Chase: I wish I had better rehearsed responses or maybe like responses ready for people who comment on my body and how I look because honestly I wear a lot of oversized clothes at work for that exact reason. Because people would just be like, oh my gosh you're so skinny. Or like especially, oh my gosh, especially when I started my ADHD meds. Like I was taking stimulants so like killed my appetite, right? Like I was working out a lot so I did eat a lot. And then like I took these meds that suppressed my appetite so I stopped eating because I just wasn't hungry. I did manage to like also not work out at the time. So that little combo if I then like wore a shirt that like was relatively fitting on me, especially men would just be like, oh wow like you look really good, you lose some weight lately? Like first off I've never talked to you ever so don't think this is like the time to start doing this. Second, this is not for you, this body's not for you, okay? This is for the other women not for you. And it's not even for other women because I'm a married woman now. So back off. You hear that baby? But like I just wish I had better responses to like come up with that and just be like, did I ask you? Like oh I don't remember asking you but then it's gonna put me in a position of danger. What if they retaliate?
Courn: Yep.
Chase: Trash. Yeah. Trash. So if y'all listening to this please stop trying to give compliments about people's body as much as you maybe want that to be like a positive thing. People's values are way more than what they look like even though society tells you otherwise but that also feeds into like the skinny privilege that I have. I have a lot of skinny privilege to be able to talk about this. Like the world has never perceived me as like, let's say ugly, stupid, like kind of all those adjectives that surround fat and so like it's hard to like be able to have these conversations because I speak from such a skinny privilege. I have not walked through the world as a fat person and perceived as obese. I just haven't, but I don't know.
Courn: It's a different world and I mean I definitely had skinny privilege for most of my life. I still think I do in some aspects. Like right now I'm a size like 14-16, which means I'm exactly mid-size. But even just seeing the differences between how I was treated when I was like a double 0 and how was a 14 like people just make comments about your weight, men don't hit on me anymore and that's probably for a variety of factors.
Chase: Oh that's nice.
Courn: But men don't find me attractive.
Chase: That's besides the point.
Courn: And I'm, I don't know being fat is not a bad thing, but when you're perceived as fat by society, it's instantly like you are unattractive. You don't take care of yourself. And like-
Chase: Yet, there's like this resurgence. So we've gone through this like, heroin chic phase
Courn: Yeah!
Chase: And then we've gone back into like curvy Kardashian but now it's like it's kind of all over the place, but it just goes to show we've talked about this in other episodes, like it's never enough, you can never be, you're either too skinny or you're too fat, you're too curvy or you're not curvy enough, like there's just never a perfect amount and then when you do get the surgery or when you do something to become enough, then it's like oh but that's not natural so that's also bad!
Courn: Correct!
Chase: Where do you win? Where?
Courn: You don't, you literally don't! Did I tell you how my grandma from Korea did not recognize me when she saw me at my brother's wedding. Which...
Chase: Ooh, what?
Courn: I think that would have been 4 years ago. And I think at that point I'd gained maybe like 50 pounds. That was when I still had like brown hair, was wearing, you know, I don't know, more typical like makeup.
Chase: Was that your preppy phase where you looked like a preppy outfit?
Courn: Yeah, yeah, that was like right out of college. She didn't recognize me.
Chase: When you gained the weight, essentially?
Courn: Yeah, she's literally said she thought I looked fat. Once she found out it was me and she literally did not recognize me. She could not fathom that you know like her little skinny granddaughter had become a full figured individual.
Chase: EWW! That's giving me such ache.
Courn: It is and I think about all the time because she actually lived with us for a few years when we were younger. She doesn't really speak much English but she did always like call me. She'd always be like, oh so thin, so eponi, which just means pretty in Korean. And she always said, oh you're so thin, you're so light-skinned. Like that was the things that she really liked to point out about me. And that was just like the early taste of like how toxic I feel like just Asian culture, Korean culture is on like fat bodies, on weaponizing fat phobia as a moral failing.
Chase: Yet, yet you got like all these old European kings who were like massive humans because they had the ability to eat all the food they wanted and that was seen as like the highest prestigious standard.
Courn: Yeah, I don't understand. The whole flip-flopping I think on like praising fat and demonizing fat, just always flip-flops in culture. It also just depends on what your position is in life. It seems like if you're fat and rich, then it's okay. But if you're fat and poor, then you're disgusting. You're immoral. Like, it feels like these values get tied to other things as well and there's definitely like a big aspect of like colonization, of racism. Like there's definitely some power dynamics that play into it too, where it's okay to be fat in some positions it's not okay in others, and all gets tied to like is a moral failing.
Chase: Well, yeah. I mean we have like the weaponization of these of people's health essentially by creating these terms like obesity and like BMI, and like thankfully BMI is starting to shift, but still I still get people coming in being like, oh my BMI is this ,and that says I should be at this like, and wanting to use that as a marker and like having to have those conversations is tough. I haven't done a lot of research on this, but the health standard that we like, we as a society have just like quote accepted. I didn't, I don't, but like, it just feels really weird. It always just feels like out of white male standards. Right? Like, yeah, you get that feeling a lot. Do you get that a lot? I don't know.
Courn: Yeah. I think that's literally anything because we live here in America and that is the prevailing power here.
Chase: Yeah, but like how small-minded and simple it would be to think that that is the epitome of everything.
Courn: Yeah, but I mean that's what it is. The beauty standard is light skin…
Chase: Gross!
Courn: Skinny, like perfect hair, which is either straight or perfectly wavy.
Chase: But just wavy enough.
Courn: Yeah, not too wavy.
Chase: I've started to actually ask my clients this a bit more and ask them what they think health really is based not from a looking standpoint. So I'm like if you have to describe health not with like a visual marker, how would that change in the definition and like what that would look like? Because that I feel like is the real marker of people's health.
Courn: Yeah, I mean that's changed my definition a lot. Cause I think now when I think about getting fit or having a better health for me, it's like, I want to feel better.
Chase: And I think majority would agree with you.
Courn: Yeah. Like it's like my energy levels are low. I don't feel that great. I feel like after eating, I can't do anything for the rest of the day, like stuff like that. And that's a lot more work you have to do than just like eating right or working out. That's holistic care.
Chase: And that's what I honestly try to like switch towards in some of like the work I do with folks and so it is hard to like have that when the preconceived idea is just like bodybuilding and skinny and macro counting and all that crap because that's really not what it should be about and like that I think realizing also working with more like neurodivergent clients because, we all kind of flock together and you know you vibe together, you get it. Like seeing how someone with ADHD works out versus like a neurotypical, honestly it's wild even for myself. Like sticking to a routine is not easy and so like yeah you hire a trainer to like stick you to a routine. But even then, I can see people's like adherence and interest change over time. And it could be and it changes pretty quickly for especially for folks with ADHD. Like within a couple sessions, I'm like, oh shit, we need to change this up. Like this is not the same or, or it's the opposite. And it takes a lot longer to figure out what the movement is because they're not paying attention or like it's hard to retain that and so like having that flexibility to like flow into different things with what people need and recognizing that before they even kind of do is nice and like I try to do that more and I wish more people would maybe look at it that way.
Courn: That's interesting. I never really thought about that. I think I present more autistically there because my issue with working out is I get really stuck in routines so I just want to do the same thing over and over like I, I have my set routine that I do now with strength training, I do it in the same order every single day. And I like to do it the same exact time. And if I don't do it at that time, then I will not do it ever again. I get stuck in these routines, which like also it's not great to do, you know, if you're trying to diversify your muscle building and stuff like that, you don't want to just be doing the same things every time. So.
Chase: There's ways to maybe like create to find a balance in that though and I'm not going to critique your workout routine here on the pod.
Courn: Please do.
Chase: But like you know and that's like kind of what, I don't know, I was excited to maybe talk about it in this lens because there is a benefit I think to people like moving their bodies in a way, right? Both in just like from a stimulation aspect right it kind of like create some like ease there but also like you said wellness, not being in pain, maybe like restlessness, focus, sleep, all those things but like that's what I want to like have more conversations about is like. How do you find what works for you and the stress of changing routine. How do we stay with that routine? Then just find something small. I have clients who do the same thing. They're just really stressed out when it's time to switch to a new workout. And so like rather than me like, okay, it's a whole new program like what I would normally do with someone. It's like, nope, this week we're just doing like one new thing. We're gonna do everything else the same. And then it's like next week we're also gonna do that one new thing and then same program. Okay, like 3 weeks later now we do two new things. You know, it's like that kind of stuff, or it's just like again you make these little adjustments. I also have somebody who like if they can't work out at their scheduled time for whatever reason, skip. We don't reschedule. There's no like, there's no adjusting. It's just like nope we skip. I'm just like okay and like that's fine. I'm not gonna force you right, but like some trainers would be like well you need to do this and like what are you gonna do instead and you have to do this!!!
Courn: Ohhh!
Chase: Yeah and I feel like that's just like, come on.
Courn: I also think it's hard too because I think that a lot of doctors too, anytime you have a problem, and I think this has come up a lot for me, and this is before I feel like I even, I don't know, became more of a mid-sized body. It was just like anytime I had a medical issue, like I was depressed, you should go work out and lose weight. I'm in chronic pain. Go lose weight.
Chase: Are you pregnant? You should go lose weight.
Courn: Yeah, literally anything, go lose weight. And like, I remember I had like, I kept switching from therapists cause they keep telling me the same thing. They're like, oh, I think you would benefit. Like, I know you're depressed and you're on meds, but I think if you just like got outside more and worked out and meanwhile I was just having these horrible chronic pain symptoms and I think less people want to talk about how like they can be flare-ups for a lot of disabled people, like it's kind of this like cycle because you're in a lot of pain from being stationary, but you have to be stationary. So you're getting incredibly sore from just like existing, sitting down all day. And then you go and work out and you try to get into it. And it is so debilitatingly horrible after the fact you were so sore, you were in so much pain. It is so hard to get into your routine because like it's not even like I don't know a phase you have to get through, like quite literally working out will always be very painful on my body. So it's like the act of working out is like not always great for me. Like while it has some health benefits, it triggers a lot of flare-ups and things, and I think people just want to have that universal idea that like ohm you go to the gym it's gonna help all of your health problems.
Chase: It's gonna magically solve everything. That's what they pitched too though like that is how the marketing and advertising is done for gyms, workouts, health and fitness, any of the stuff it's like, you got a problem? Gym. You got a problem? Like can't do this? Gym. But like that's not at all the case and I'm really glad you also touched on like the ability factor and the access because like how much of like those workouts are based on like your physical ability. Like talk about people who are like physically disabled, like folks in a wheelchair or maybe are like missing a limb. How much we praise them when they do the like thing that everyone else does. It's just like-
Courn: Correct!
Chase: Oh my gosh, no excuse if this person in a wheelchair can do it, you can do it!
Courn: They're defying boundaries.
Chase: Exactly. Exactly. And how absolutely toxic that is. Like, yeah, well, that's impressive. Like, it shouldn't be just like, oh my gosh, you have a superpower and yeah, super like-
Courn: And simultaneously, gyms are very like inaccessible places for most disabled people and like especially we are still in the pandemic and most disabled and chronically ill people, they cannot go to the gym even with the mask on because there's so many people unmasked. There's a heavy exchange of bodily fluids at the gym.
Chase: Absolutely, yeah.
Courn: Everywhere. It can be-
Chase: And the ventilation system isn't always great.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: You're close quarters with stuff.
Courn: It can be a really dangerous space for people. So just to be like, oh, yeah, you should just go work out. It's just like the gym is not a hospitable place for so many reasons for people, but especially for a lot of like chronically ill and disabled people who would really benefit from being able to use the gym, they can't. So what you supposed to just spend a thousand dollars to make your own like?
Chase: It absolutely is. Did you know that bodybuilding, because I want to go on a quick bodybuilding tangent, because everyone thinks that's the standard, but you know where bodybuilding kind of originated?
Courn: No.
Chase: It was a circus act.
Courn: Okay, that kind of makes sense.
Chase: Like strongman.
Courn: Like the strongman, yeah.
Chase: Yeah, so like what is the circus known for though? Like-
Courn: Exploiting disabled people.
Chase: Thank you. Thank you. Like-
Courn: Exploiting Black and brown people.
Chase: The term circus freaks, right? Like it was a show. It was a show of outcasts and people who were like viewed as weird by society. Yeah. Okay. Now, how are bodybuilders viewed? The upper echelon, creme de la creme. Like what? So just the fact that it was thought of as this one kind of like quote weird, not normal thing has now become the standard and it's now what people compare themselves to and think that like that is what they have to become to be happy and be fulfilled in life and have like meaningful relationships.
Courn: Yeah, that's wild to me.
Chase: Yeah, like I really started unpacking that and I've kind of just been trying to bring that into conversation with clients, you know, who I have relationship with or built up some trust because. Not that everyone comes in wanting to look like a bodybuilder, but we know how prevalent that stuff is on social media and how it's like, oh, yeah, take these supplements do this workout, you'll look like me!
Courn: Those guys ain't natty, they ain’t!
Chase: None of them are!
Courn: You cannot look like that!
Chase: They can tell you all day that they are natty. They are not.
Courn: Also bodybuilders die so young.
Chase: Correct.
Courn: I just saw a video this morning that was like, oh famous bodybuilders and what age they died at.
Chase: Yeah.
Courn: Just like 20 to 40.
Chase: No one lives past like 40 when you're a bodybuilder.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Cause your body is like, just really not meant to sustain that much amount of force and like stress and trauma.
Courn: No, your heart is not good. Like a lot of them just have heart attacks.
Chase: Well, and like the eating too, along with that. And like, nobody talks about the disordered eating that bodybuilders go through. Like women lose so much body fat that they don't have a period. Like their hormones get that messed up. Like the first thing you do after a bodybuilding show is like scarf down some fancy dessert, fried food, whatever. Like you're telling me that's healthy? Tell me that's healthy. Look me in my eye and tell me that's healthy.
Courn: It's not.
Chase: It's not.
Courn: It's really not. I guess I don't see a lot of fascination with bodybuilding as much maybe because I'm not in the fitness industry.
Chase: Yeah. It's dying down.
Courn: But yeah, I don't know. My brothers are both in that route where they both work out a lot and they look I mean pretty buff, they're not like bodybuilder buff, but they definitely have like an unhealthy obsession with it and are working out every day and I'm like-
Chase: But it's like that kind of addiction it's not seen as addiction or like unhealthy compulsory behaviors.
Courn: Because it makes you look good!
Chase: Right, because I literally just told that it's good, it's just told that it's good. You can make the same argument spin for any other like addictive toxic behavior, alcoholism. Oh but like it's so good, there's so many health benefits to this liquid and if you drink it frequently enough it'll help you sleep and like you could literally pitch anything that's advertising and marketing at its core is to just make something appear a certain way and then convince you that that's true.
Courn: Correct.
Chase: Yeah, bodybuilding, being muscular as hell, though it can be hot on certain people, like it's not the epitome of your health and I hope people can start to unlearn that and question that.
Courn: I think a lot of it's just like who are you doing it for and I think that's been my own personal journey of realizing that anytime I wanted to go to the gym or like build muscle it was always just like I wanted to appeal to society. I wanted to live life easier and like that can be a valid excuse for some people, like you just want to have an easier life and not have people call you fat.
Chase: That yeah.
Courn: And not be I don't know, accosted on the street.
Chase: Hated by society?
Courn: Yeah, for just existing but all I know for me, that just put me in really toxic behaviors.
Chase: That's a good point.
Courn: Of seeing myself as worthless unless I looked a certain way. And I've been like off and on again, working out for like the past year, it's kind of hard with chronic pain flare ups and stuff. But I will say, I think I've noticed as I've started building muscle, like I get it. Like I think it literally is like an addiction thing. Cause like it definitely does feel empowering like building muscle. I don't know, getting stronger. I know there's actually like some brain science where it releases dopamine. I don't know if that's true when you're working out because I always feel like shit when I'm working out and maybe that's just the chronically ill person in me.
Chase: No and see that's where I'm convinced that like these extreme bodybuilding and extreme fitness levels are just people who dissociate and like repattern their brain to these sensations really well.
Courn: Something, or like-
Chase: I hate the sensation of like my legs getting tired and like that pump sensation that people talk about. I fucking hate that sensation.
Courn: My partner loves that.
Chase: See?
Courn: And I don't get it. But I do feel like if I take a break for a long time, then I have a really good workout session where I'm having a good day. And I'm like, I'm not having a lot of flare ups. I'll get done and be like, oh, that wasn't so bad. I'm like, man, is this just how able-bodied people, non-disabled people are feeling all the time.
Chase: I'm like, yeah. Was it the workout that caused this? Maybe that did, oh, maybe the workout was right. And like, maybe I should do that again. And it just kind of just like perpetuates that when reality is like, maybe you just had a low stress day. I don't know. There's so many factors that could have gone into that also happened to be on the day you worked out.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: I don't know.I wasn't there that day.
Courn: There's also just so much weird, like moral assignment too in the fitness industry.
Chase: I hate it so much.
Courn: Where it's like some activities are good, some are bad. I think the big thing that comes up a lot with food, I think that's an interesting thing going through therapy for different food related things. How it very quickly comes up that like you shouldn't be seeing any type of food as morally good or bad because it's a slippery slope being like, oh this food is bad, it makes me feel bad when I eat it when it's just like even though it may be bad for you in some reason like, oh it upsets your tummy or makes you gain weight it may make you feel good, there's a purpose for food, it's fuel, it's not bad!
Chase: And you know I feel like that's a common thing trainers are taught not to use or maybe like it's now becoming like a less common thing, but my brain substituted that with, and this also came from like other toxic podcasts that I used to listen to, like rather than good and bad foods, like think of them as foods that support your goals or like don't support your goals.
Courn: That's the same thing.
Chase: Not in my brain at the time I was like, oh yeah that makes sense because like food is not inherently good or bad but like does this help me reach my goal? Yes, no. And then I fixated on that and like that was my obsession and that was like also very unhealthy and unhelpful for people. So like it's so funny how like those little things can just get spun into like suddenly good when like it's just as toxic.
Courn: Yeah. Well you have people just assigning moral values to like different types of like exercises and workouts and things. Like people are like, oh like if you're walking to get you know your steps like that's not good, like that's that's old people exercising, like that's not real exercising!
Chase: Yeah that reminds me of a machine that used to have a really bad name, I don't know if people still call it this, I really hope not!
Courn: I didn’t even know machines like had names.
Chase: Besides like the official like-
Courn: Bow flex!
Chase: Lat pulldown machine, leg press, no there was a machine at 24-hour fitness, especially in the 24-hour fitness culture, it's toxic as hell. They would call it the good girl, bad girl machine.
Courn: What does that mean, what does it do?
Chase: The machine itself works your adductors or your abductors which is just the muscles that move your legs in and out, so like when you like stand up and lift your leg to the side that's like abduction and then when you bring it back down the middle that's adduction. So when you sit and do that little machine that you like squeeze your legs against the little pad or you push them out and open.
Courn: What?!
Chase: Yep! Good girl, bad girl machine.
Courn: Is this slut shaming?
Chase: Yeah it absolutely is.
Courn: Open legs, close legs? *Gasps*
Chase: Yeah, because you're just opening and closing and like that's yeah absolutely and talk about just how horribly toxic and terrible it is, so on that note, I'm just kidding!
Courn: I am a bad girl!
Chase: Yeah! I'm gonna go be a baddie yeah, isn't that so wild? You didn't know that?
Courn: No, I mean I don't know much about machines. I've never really done a lot of working out at gyms and now I work out at home because that's the only way I can work out as an autistic person. There's no way I'm going to a gym and going through that sensory hell. But I do think one thing I did want to touch on too, just like as an autistic person, I don't think people realize how debilitating, I think weight fluctuations can be. And they're a normal part of being a human, our weight fluctuates. But I think it definitely doesn't help like these feelings that like you feel morally bad because you're fat, you're gaining weight, because like literally your body has like a visceral reaction. Like as soon as I feel like I started getting some weight in my chest and my stomach, it instantly was like I couldn't sit comfortably anymore. I couldn't run comfortably. I just had so much sensory discomfort over the way my body was sitting on each other, which then just contributed to this overall behavior of, I need to lose weight right now so I can feel like myself. And it's just very disorienting. It's very debilitating. And I still haven't been able to get past that. Like I think morally, I'm trying to decide that like, oh I don't think my body is worse than it was when I was a literal child. But it debilitates me in some ways. It's very uncomfortable like the way weight sits on me and I don't like it and it's hard to like separate those feelings from like feeling like you're less worthy or not attractive and I feel like I've heard a lot of other autistic people say that too like when they started gaining weight, they're like oh yeah I didn't really care about like you know gaining weight but suddenly my clothes couldn't fit and that was a whole sensory nightmare of trying to find new clothes when I only wear the same few shirts and I have a hundred of them. It just feels uncomfortable.
Chase: That's a really good point. I'm glad you brought that up.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Absolutely. I think the last piece I was going to end with of everything talking about body image and health and fitness was like I hate also when people punish their body and punish themselves by working out and I think that verbiage needs to change and stop too because that also just feeds into stuff that's like just not good for you and like how how is that healthy?
Courn: I just ate ice cream now I need to go on the stepper for 5 hours, like what?!
Chase: Yeah or even just people who like I don't know especially like CrossFit communities found so much like community in their mutual torture and just like the camaraderie in their misery and like why? Like is that people just thinking that like that is what's fun and value, like it's not it's the shock factor and so like if there's anything I can say and to get people to start thinking differently is like work out as a means to like feel good but don't also use it as a means to like avoid other things that you don't want to handle and work through. So like it can, a tool is a tool, as they say right like a hammer is a hammer it can be used to kill someone or build something but like don't don't try not to have the outlook that you need to like do the hardest workout and destroy your legs for this and like that's also just not positive and healthy.
Courn: No, you shouldn't feel like death doing your workout.
Chase: People love that though.
Courn: I find that weird. I also just think like, you don't have to go to the gym to get a workout. You can do things you already enjoy. Roller skating is my primary cardio these days. And I love it.
Chase: Soccer is my cardio these days.
Courn: Yeah.
Chase: Roof.
Courn: Yeah. I'm just, that sounds so much more appealing to me than going and running on a treadmill which didn’t really do much-
Chase: And I wish more people did that stuff like go do things that are fun, you don't have to be good at those activities just go have fun and like move your body, get some fresh air, get a little sunshine if you want, again if you want, if you want to do those things inside, okay sure! Great, do that. Yeah, okay well I'm gonna go encourage you all to ask yourself what health means to you and have it not be based on looks and see where that gets you. Okay, bye.
Courn: Bye!
Chase: Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!