Episode 2: What flavor ramen R U?

Courn:     Hey everybody, this is Neurotakes. I'm Courn.

Chase:     I'm Chase.

Courn:     Let's get into it. Chase, how do you feel about people pronouncing Hawaii, Ha-va-ii? Like, what is the correct way? Educate me. How should people say that?

Chase:     Okay, if you're white, do not say Hawaii. Just straight up. Don't do it. Now, if you were like born and raised in Hawaii and you're Haole and like you've been living there for generations maybe but if you also do not do anything to give back to the culture and like tie into any of the values and help a like population that needs a lot of help, then no. You don't get to say Hawaii. I don't even say Hawaii.

Courn:     Yeah, I've never heard you say that.

Chase:     But that might just be because I'm also half white. Yeah. No, don't do that. That's bad.

Courn:     Okay, good to know. I felt like there's something just weird about like, enunciating words from different cultures. Just one word. Like I know people like CROISSANT.

Chase:     I was going to say, I feel like when you go to like the Mexican restaurant, it's like QUESADILLA.

Courn:     You put so much throat-

Chase:     Like, I feel like that's what the bullshit that people do though, right? Like just say quesadilla. Yeah, you're American. You speak English, like no need to like, now now are you gonna say quesadilla?

Courn:     I was about to say there's a line between quesadilla and quesadilla. Yeah, like somewhere in between.

Chase:     Yeah, there's come on be respectful. But also you don't need to try so hard, now what you can try hard and actually just say it properly with the like correct like pauses and like enunciation so like instead of saying like kawaii for the island be like kawaii, because that's like technically how you would say it. Hawaii it's the same thing, Hawaii, right like it's like a little different than just being like-

Courn:      that's fair!

Chase:      Hawaii you know versus like Hawaii, like the there's an island like it's spelled Lanai but that's how you would say it like if you wanted to be a little more lazy, but it's really just like Lanai right like there's like a little bit more of a pause okay you know and so there's that but that's that's our hot take.

Courn:     I needed that lesson, honestly. So yeah, thank you, Chase.

Chase:     Okay, Courn, I have a question for you.

Courn:     Lay it on me.

Chase:     Is Hawaiian Asian? Like, is that really Asian?

Courn:     You tell me. According to AAPI Month, they like to think so, but you're Hawaiian. What do you feel about that?

Chase:     I was thinking about that as we started like brainstorming for this episode and I don't know that I would even consider Hawaiian, asian. Like when you really think about it.

Courn:     I don't even know what comes as Asian because I think really it's indigenous. Which obviously that's a much bigger label but like is Hawaii part of Asia? Which I think technically means the definition for Asian but obviously there's like, I don't know, physical and cultural characteristics they're using too. Do you feel Asian?

Chase:     That's the thing. I don't know that I would really consider myself Asian if somebody asked me straight up, are you Asian? I might stutter because you're right, on the continent of Asia, there's also so many different countries within that, that I don't feel like people would assume is Asian, as in like Russia is on the Asian continent. Like when you look at the kind of Asia, Russia's in there.

Courn:     That's my hot take, that I think Russians are kind of Asian. And that's me knowing nothing about Russian culture, but I'm like, they look kind of Asian. Have you seen their eyes? Like there's some monolids going on there. So I don't know.

Chase:     But like, I don't know, like when we say Asian, I don't think my brain thinks of, or like pictures or like culture really kind of starts to imagine like Russia. So I guess maybe like Hawaii being included like Pacific Islander, right? That's like the PI and AAPI. Yeah. But like I get why they're looped, why it gets looped in but at the same time it does not feel like it should be looped in. Yeah. That's my hot take right off the bat.

Courn:     I think there's a strong case for that. Because I mean, I mean, there's a lot of people feel that way about AAPI month that the P.I. Is kind of weird and just kind of slapped at the end. And it doesn't necessarily represent that Pacific Islander people are actually in that celebration and that celebration of culture.

Chase:     Right, right. Because a lot of Pacific Islanders, I don't even know if that's a term we would even call ourselves. I had a lot of talks with people in preparation for this episode to also be like, what are your thoughts on that? Because it just, it just feels weird. And like most people from places in the Pacific Islands would just call themselves like of the name or like the island or the country that maybe they're like from. So like you would just say, oh, I'm like Tahitian or you know, Fijian or any of the other things because there's so many islands in there. So...

Courn:     I think a lot of it too depends on like what you were called and what you called yourself growing up because I mean I don't think anyone's really like throwing around the term actively Pacific Islander as a child.

Chase:     It's only listed on the stupid forums. That's the only time you see it.

Courn:     Yeah and I think that's why it's different because I'm like as a Korean person I mean no one was going to distinguish me as Korean growing up like it was just like you're Asian so for me that title resonated a lot I'm like oh, I'm freaking asian. That's how I'm perceived. So I think that's also like a big part of it. Like, I know you weren't calling yourself Pacific Islander.

Chase:     Yeah, no, I would always say Hawaiian. But even then, like I am not, I was not born in Hawaii. I'm technically not like my family's origin is not native Hawaiian. It's not like indigenous to the like land. Like it is a lot of other cultures, Filipino, Portuguese. I have a little bit of like Chinese from my great-grandfather. But like it's those origins that like came together in Hawaii that then like my dad was born. And so like I am not of that kind of indigenous, I guess, origins, which is kind of weird to think about. Cause I did not know the difference as a kid that there would be two differences.

Courn:     Oh, for sure. So, so all that to say, this is why we say AAPI and not use Asian for both our experiences and even AAPI I think we're acknowledging that there's a lot of limits to that term, not everyone's gonna resonate with it for very valid reasons but also if you just want to say hey I'm Chase, I'm Hawaiian, and it's complicated that's okay too.

Chase:     I'm gonna start putting other on the forms and just put it's complicated.

Courn:     Yeah ask me about it I have a whole powerpoint to explain my heritage and cultural background.

Chase:     Truly. What do you select on like forms? What would be the closest like given title that you don't even like identify with?

Courn:     It's weird because like I didn't see a lot of Asian on forms growing up and I know that's changed. Like I think when I took my SAT or like my PSAT, it just was like non-Hispanic or Hispanic, which that's not my culture to comment on, but I know that that's not cool and very weird. But I do remember when I was doing stuff for college that like, yeah, there's just like an Asian American bucket. My doctor actually had like specific ones and it felt a little like elitist cause it was like Korean, Japan, Chinese. And then it was like, the rest was a separate bullet. And I was like, oh, that's not cool.

Chase:     So they looped them in like as one.

Courn:     Yeah. But I'm like, I actually just checked the asian bucket I don't know I'm not filling out that many forms these days but I'm like if I can get a little diversity rep what the heck yeah but I'm also like mixed white so I'm like I feel obligated to pick white as well. S,o I never just pick Asian because that feels weird as a half Asian person.

Chase:     Okay yeah that's yeah see again, I'm Courn and it's complicated. Yeah that should be really just been our intro.

Courn:     Truly.

Chase:     It's just complicated. Were you the type of Asian household to make rice every night for dinner?

Courn:     See, no. Which is like kind of lame. Like my dad did like whenever he decided he wanted rice, which is like a couple times a week. But like I said in the intro, like my mom did all the cooking. She did a lot of American cooking. That did not include rice. And if there was rice, it was like very Americanized fried rice. So no, I was not eating rice, which I feel like I missed out on such a big shared cultural experience as a wasian. I feel like people talk about the cooking and households. Yeah. We did not have white rice a lot. I know that is different from you.

Chase:     Oh, so different. And we eat, Jess and I eat so much rice now. Jess is my wife if we haven't established that but yeah we yeah we eat a ton of rice now. I grew up making rice almost every day like that was like almost like the expectation like you get home from school it's like oh can you make rice or can you start rice you know just so that because it takes you know 20-30 minutes whatever to make it in the rice cooker so. So you weren't even like for food like how did that how was it growing up like with obviously being half white and asian, did that translate to like the foods you cooked or like do you feel like you have some of those like values?

Courn:     You know, it's kind of mixed. Like I feel like I had a lot of those values instilled in me because I feel like, I mean, my dad was Korean. He still ate a lot of Korean food. So he was very much telling me like, oh, white people, you know, call this food gross. They say it's stinky. So I very much like had that mindset of just like, Oh, do not be condescending to Asian food, even though I didn't freaking eat it whatsoever. And I definitely was because my mom was doing the cooking, but also because like I had pretty bad food restrictions. I ate mac and cheese every day for like 8 years. So if you're asking me if I was eating, you know, kimchi, no, I had a really bad food aversion Yeah, but yeah I mean I feel like I had other friends at school that I had a close friend in high school in particular that always had like a Lot of like Asian packed food lunches and they would get a lot of shit for it.

Chase:     Wow. But that was not your experience. 

Courn:     No, cause I'm over here eating a goddamn cup of noodle. Like the Americanized Korean I am. I assimilated, you know? 

Chase:     Yeah. I think that's an important, maybe like cross section of our identities of it, of like the American piece. It's like the Asian Pacific Islander with this umbrella hanging over or this lens and filter of America through it. It's not actual authentic. Because I didn't even realize with Hawaiian food, yeah, I ate a lot of Spam and fried rice, and Spam makes rice. And there's a few things I would eat. My grandma made some kimchi, but again, it's not an indigenous Hawaiian food. So like, it wasn't until like late, late, later in life did I realize I was really not eating any Hawaiian food growing up, like indigenous Hawaiian foods, which is so different than like the local culture which would be like your plate lunches of like mac salad rice and like some kind of meat like that's completely different that's not even like Hawaiian food ,so having that lens I feel like complicated it for me, like having that almost in front of it and not having the distinction early in life.

Courn:     Oh for sure I think I'm still like catching up on Korean food cuz I didn't grow up having it so I feel like I'm just like oh man am I perpetuating annoying white people being like oh yeah Korean people they they love kimchi and rice and lots of pork. And it's like, I don't know. And it's taken, I think, a lot of learning for me to learn more traditional Korean dishes, but also understand there's a lot of variants and that, of course, not all people eat the same thing you know

Chase:     Yeah that's true. It was wild when you told me like even what like actual Korean people look, like not like the maybe like romanticized and like public and like popularized version that you see in media, because now I see it immediately. Like we've started rewatching "Killing Eve" with Sandra Oh, and I was like, Korean, I can tell.

Courn:     I just started watching that literally yesterday.

Chase:     Did we start it in the same week?

Courn:     Because I've never watched that before, but I finally decided.

Chase:     Oh, we have to talk about that. 

Courn:     Cause everyone's like oh it's gay, it has Sandra Oh, yeah.

Chase:     So and it's like murders and it's like, it's so good. 

Courn:     Yes. Yes.

Chase:     Oh, yeah. We are like on episode 3 or 4. It's like our second or third time through.

Courn:     OK, I just got a season 2. We'll have to continue this.

Chase:     Yeah, we're going to we're going to pin that and come back. But like celebrities. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I didn't think I don't think I even knew like Korean visually and like do you feel like that's common? Like do a lot of people not know?

Courn:     Yes. Okay. And I think it's even wilder now just because like there's so much Korean stuff in the media because I feel like that was definitely different growing up. People had no idea the different like Asians.

Chase:     Oh yeah.

Courn:     But now it's just like K-pop, we have K-beauty and the people that have been largely leading that have been very like light-skinned Korean people which is just so wild to me, because I was very confused because I'm just like I don't know my dad is like you know pretty freaking tan like he's a brown man, and that's how all of my Korean family looks. So it's very confusing to me and I still consume, I watch a lot of K-dramas, I consume a lot of Korean media and it's no accident that K-pop stars are pale white. Most of them aren't even that skin tone, they're just painting their skin that way. They're not letting them in the sun, but yeah, Korean people are pretty tan. So-

Chase:     Island people!

Courn:     Yeah. But it's just weird. So I think that, I don't know, obviously plays into a lot of like gross, light skin, internalized racism shit in Korea. But it also just paints a picture of like people being like, oh yeah, like you look Korean cause you're really light skinned Courn. And I'm just like, what? I'm like, I'm light skinned cause I'm half white. I don't tan, I burn.

Chase:     It has nothing to do with Korea.

Courn:     No, thanks mom. But that was like always a compliment growing up. People would just be like, oh, you have such like beautiful light Asian skin. And I'm just like, my dad is brown.

Chase:     What is it with people commenting on our skin?

Courn:     It's really, it doesn't matter what comment it is. Like if it's good, you're like, oh, I love your tan skin. Fucking don't do it. Don't say it.

Chase:     Like, do white people get comments about their skin?

Courn:     I don't think so. Maybe like, oh, I like your freckles. I don't know. But even that seems like, don't do it.

Chase:     Think about it. It's weird. Like if you're sitting there like listening to this and someone like genuinely went up to you and was like oh my gosh like your skin is just so nice. I don't think people would take that as a microaggression. I think they'd be like oh my god thank you so much like I moisturize and I wash them like or like they would like relate it to the routine I don't think most people would even think that it's like weird because it only happens to like brown people.

Courn:     Yeah I think it's weird I'd be like okay Hannibal like right go off why are you looking at my skin but also like-

Chase:     Such a nice skin color I think that's a weird one.

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     You have the nicest, your skin tone is just so nice. 

Courn:     It's also just like not a bigger red flag, I think, than someone kind of outing themselves by saying, oh, I love your skin. Like, tell me without telling me that the first thing you noticed about me is my skin tone. Like clearly that's the first thing you see. Whether that's ingrained or that's like not intentional, like that's what you're saying when you say that so quickly.

Chase:     Right. And it wasn't until I learned even that like I have been growing up with microaggressions again about my skin, anything, did I realize like everything in our society is related to the visuals and like what you first see about someone. Like that really started to click where like we always think about at least in the fitness space people or like in the gyms are like, oh my gosh this person lost so much weight like they look so good or like wow have you lost weight or like wow like look how much muscle you've put on or it's like always something about like the visual appearance of someone and it's never like the compliment of just like you're such a great person.

Courn:     Right, right.

Chase:     You know, and so like how much that's like valued and almost are like instinctually like that's the first thing we say about someone. So that's a really big tangent to say don't compliment people's skin color.

Courn:     Yeah and I think that goes for like hair, other things that could be conceived like as racial stereotypes. And I feel like I also got a lot of comments that were just like, oh, you have like such long, sleek Asian hair, which also I'll say a lot of Korean people have very like curly hair. Like obviously not like super tight wave patterns, but like we got some curly hair, my whole side of my family on my Asian side has very like dense curly hair so when people would be like oh look at your thin Korean hair, I'm like this is my mom's fragile ass white hair.

Chase:     I didn't know that everyone in your family has like curly hair and not other than you.

Courn:     Yeah, well, I mean obviously like I'm not in touch with my Korean dad anymore and it didn't really pass on to like us kids.

Chase:     Oh, okay. Okay. 

Courn:     Yeah, but like my whole dad's side like his he actually like whatever else kept his hair short but he used to have like these beautiful waves and I'm like that's that's kind of cute. 

Chase:     Nice. There is a fine line though of just complimenting someone because you're like wow that is really nice looking without it being like race charged you know like I don't know.

Courn:     I think I've heard that comment before they're like oh only compliment things that people can choose. So like, you compliment someone's clothes, or you compliment someone's piercing. Like those are choices someone actively makes. So when you compliment someone's skin tone, like I guess maybe you can choose to make it tanner, but in general, that's something someone can't help. So it's like kind of weird.

Chase:     Yeah that's a good way to put it.

Courn:     Or like I don't know hair texture is a weird thing to compliment if you're like oh I like the color of the hair that you dyed your hair like, I don't know I think it gets dubious.

Chase:     Okay that's fair that's fair. Is it weird to compliment someone's curly hair if they like take really good care of their curls and you're like, wow, those are really nice curls.

Courn:     I mean, I don't think I'm like- 

Chase:     Yeah. I mean, we can't speak for that. 

Courn:     I don't think I'm qualified to say whether that's offensive or not.

Chase:     That's true. I'm just like deep, I'm like thinking about it now.

Courn:     I think there's less problematic ways to say that you like someone's hair.

Chase:     Or like yeah I like a hairstyle or how it's like you said something like they pick Yeah, just like they can't.

Courn:     Like your hair is looking so shiny right now! Like I think you know, maybe that can be taken as greasy, but I don't know.

Chase:     Yeah again, it all ties back to just this like obsession with looks and appearance. Yeah, there's a like a healthy way to like present yourself to the world and express yourself without it being like rooted in bad stuff.

Courn:     Do you think you ever got like microaggressions that like weren't based on looks like or like what would be an example for you, I guess I'm curious?

Chase:     mm-hmm!

Courn:      Or is it just always based on mostly looks?

Chase:      Yeah, thing is like I feel like with how little Americans know about true Hawaiian culture like the misconceptions are almost just like positive misconceptions like there's really there's not a ton of like racially charged like stereotypes and jokes towards like Hawaiian culture most people love Hawaii like-

Courn:     Yeah!

Chase:     -they love Hawaii they love the people, like it's all chill they might. There might be some like jokes that could be tied to like just indigenous people of the land but like that's kind of a cross the board. So I don't know that there's a ton that people know to go for. I'm almost impressed when somebody does have one in a way because I'm like I haven't heard that. But yeah I think mine were mostly looks especially because when I was like more femme presenting I was still kind of like ambiguously brown looking like brown skin dark hair like thick eyebrows But like we I don't know. It's I think yeah, Most people would just kind of like ask, where am I from? Where are you from? 

Courn:     Right. I feel like I get less of that these days, probably because I, I don't know, I've been told I look a lot more white passing now and I have a lot of feelings on that, but I definitely think like growing up, like I definitely would get some behavioral stuff. Maybe that's because I was like more light skinned. They ran out of stuff to say physically. So I feel like I did comments from teachers and stuff that were like, Oh, like you're so quiet and reserved. Like definitely plays into this like, I don't know, subservient Asian stereotypes, like being rule following.

Chase:     Right.

Courn:     It turns out I just was autistic and very quiet and having a hard time communicating things but that always got attributed to like I don't know being Asian like that's why I was weird that's why I was talking differently that's why I didn't fit in with peers. So I think people just kind of like let me into that foreignization of like anything that I did that wasn't what other kids were doing. It was because I was Asian. And I think that's kind of like how a lot of my behaviors got grouped into that when they weren't really Asian behaviors at all.

Chase:     Oh, do you have an example of anything like that? I mean, you kind of just listed some, but... 

Courn:     Oh, I can think of a good example.

Chase:     Okay.

Courn:     I like... What's the right word? I messed up my words a lot, like pronunciation and consonants, and I still do quite a bit. I don't know. It's like I don't have like a speech impediment diagnosed, but I definitely mess up words a lot and use the wrong word on accident. And this was more prevalent when I was a kid. So I'd mess up my words a lot and people thought it was because English wasn't my first language. And that came up a lot. Like I remember one of my teachers being like, wow, it's like, it's so cool that, you know, like, you know so much at such a young age. And I didn't know what they meant. And they thought that the reason why I was bad at talking was because it wasn't my first language. It was, I just was having like, I don't know, some speech delays. I was having some issues with pronunciation. Like I said, definitely the rule following, like people, like I remember getting so mad at kids. Like, you know, if they did something wrong, like they left a magazine out at recess, like they didn't put something away, I would yell at them and berate them. And my teacher would just be like, oh yeah, you're just like that. I remember kids calling me Kim Jong-un because I was like rule following. Nothing to do with me being Asian. Now I just was like, I like rules.

Chase:     He is the ruler of Korea, dictator?

Courn:     Yeah, I think that's the correct word.

Chase:     Okay, so they at least had it like in the same region. 

Courn:     Yeah, but I also just like playing into those stereotypes I would just tell kids that I was related to him yeah all the time I'd be like yeah that's my uncle!

Chase:     and they just go for it!

Courn:     Yeah don't be mean to me and or he'll get you and they're like oh I don't want to be mistled!

Chase:    they just, they just yell konichiwa! yeah, you're like oh my god!

Courn:     I do remember a kid in third grade saying ni hao to me oh and I was like like I appreciate the effort, not me, wrong. But Iiss it because we never had like a Korean show growing up? Because I feel like everyone knows Konichiwa and Nihao and I think that's because like Nihao, I'm Kailan. I don't know, Japanese culture is just more mainstream, but no one out here was saying, Annyeonghaseyo! Annyeong! No one was saying that to me. If they did, I would have cried.

Chase:     I mean, while they're over here saying, Hola!

Courn:     I was just about to say!

Chase:     Hola! Cringe. Cringe.

Courn:     Yeah, that's kind of horrid.

Chase:    Oh, I feel like in my school we had like a little Chinese New Year celebration, okay, but everyone was white. Actually, we had a pretty decent like Asian population. I feel like there's a lot of like Indian kids.

Courn:    Mm-hmm.

Chase:     But I mean all those teachers are white, like why are we celebrating Chinese New Year?

Courn:     A little weird to facilitate.

Chase:     It's kind of weird, like why we celebrate Chinese New Year? 

Courn:     But would it be weird if they didn't include it? I don't know. I guess I don't know what the solution is, but maybe bring in some Chinese people. 

Chase:     Maybe bring in some Chinese families that were willing to share, I don't know. But also white people asking other cultures to come in and educate them. That feels weird. 

Courn:     Pay them? Yeah. Pay a group to come in? Yeah, I think the solution is less of the problem but that this whole experience probably was weird. 

Chase:     Yeah and it really isn't weird until you pause and like think about it.

Courn:     Yeah obviously I never had anything we never celebrated like the lunar new year and I don't know just because I grew up in a really small town, like as I've mentioned, 30 kids a class, all white. Asian wise, it was just me and my other friend. And of course, we became best friends because we were both Asian. So we never did things like that. But I'm like, I think there's a host of other microaggressions that come, you know, being at a small school with no Asian kids. Like, I think it's just interesting hearing some of your experiences going to a bigger school and having a higher Asian population. Cause like, I don't know, I don't even consider myself like a good representation of like a Korean American, and I don't mean that to like say that I'm a bad example but I'm just like I don't think my voice is necessarily one that speaks for all Korean Americans.

Chase:     How come?

Courn:     I think for a host of reasons. One is just that like clearly I'm very light-skinned. I have some white passing things about me. Also I didn't grow up eating Korean food or being immersed in that culture. But I think to the point I was trying to say was that like I don't think I'm a standing ovation for Korean American representation. But then for that to be the only representation that I think white kids had growing up, that like I had to be that person and I was fucking horrible at it. Like I should not have had that job. And I'm just like, I just imagine, I know these white kids going to a bigger school and having more Asian rep, it probably would have blew their tiny minds.

Chase:     Do you think they would have even accepted it? I mean, we obviously can only speculate now, but-

Courn:      Yeah I don't know at my school probably not because I grew up with a lot of conservative like hicks like these were not liberal white people. This is not like Portland. This is like out in the Tillamook Coast, like these people would yell slurs at you and stuff

Chase:     for no matter anything that was like non-white.

Courn:     Yeah, and I look back to and I look at photos of myself growing up and I'm just like, yeah, I look Asian, but like I didn't even do anything that was like, quote unquote, stereotypically Asian. Like they were really reaching to bully me. So I think that really puts like, oh man, I feel like I was really privileged in that aspect of I'm just like, I can't imagine, I don't know, being more visually Asian passing, like having stronger elements of cultural, how that would have impacted the way I would have been bullied and harassed. .

Chase:     Damn. Yeah, you brought more stinky food?

Courn:     Yeah.

Chase:    Yeah. I'm still afraid of stinky food to this day. I'm trying to work on that people.

Courn:     It's hard for me, because honestly, as someone who's like very sensory avoidant, I find all food to be stinky. So I don't quite understand that. I think it's all meat is quite stinky, but I grew up around kimchi. So people call that stinky and I'm like, I don't know, It smells like vinegar.

Chase:     I was going to say, what is stinky though? Like then, then when you really get into it, but I think, I think it's just the people pleasing of like not wanting to rock the boat and like draw bad attention to myself.

Courn:     Yeah. I, I mean, I feel like I had a close friend and I don't wanna speak for them, but I remember them telling me a lot of the times that they wished that they had cup of noodles and stuff like that. Like they wish they had like an American lunch. And I know that I've heard that sentiment from a lot of Asian Americans growing up. Like they felt very embarrassed about the food they were bringing and that just makes me like feel so freaking sad that I don't know kids are so crappy about that and it's not even just kids like you know colleagues and work they'll give you shit about you know warming up any food that has fucking seasoning meanwhile they're over there eating like a sloppy joe, like that's disgusting oh yeah You want to call out Asian food? Let's look at American food. It's freaking nasty.

Chase:     Cheese coated deep fried gravy smothered.

Courn:     Your Trader Joe's warm up pasta that just looks like a blend of nasty mushy stuff.

Chase:     That's been in a freezer for months.

Courn:     Yeah, I'm just saying all food is like kind of gross when it's not your food.

Chase:     Also, just because you're unfamiliar with it doesn't give you the right to comment on it and to like give your opinion on it. Did anyone ask for your opinion on whether it was stinky? No. How about you shut the fuck up then?

Courn:     Respectfully, put on a mask, go another room, get over it.

Chase:     Yeah, I think that maybe goes into it as well, right? It's just like how many white people just have to like assert their opinion on your culture and like heritage and like family of origin. Yeah. Right? Like there's so much of like that that's almost like ingrained to an automatic degree. No one asked you. Yeah. Like again, just because you noticed first thing that my skin tone was different than yours you then felt the need to exert energy and speak to me regarding that yeah

Courn:     I think it's just that othering I think that happens so much which is like I don't know obviously all marginalized youth but I think I can speak obviously for AAPI youth. It's just like anything you do. If it's not standard American, it's othered. And for that reason, it's bad.

Chase:     Like I just automatically disconnect and there's like a, either an elevation or de-elevation of those two things. There's always like a comparison.

Courn:     Oh definitely. Yeah.

Chase:     I always got asked when they found out I was like Hawaiian, which I'm gonna get into that at some point because I don't even really consider myself Hawaiian in that way that like most people would. Oh first question was like, oh how long have you lived away from the islands? Or how long have you lived, oh how long have you lived away from the islands or how long have you lived ,oh how long have you lived here

Courn:    Yeah.

Chase:    Jokes on you bitch I was here I live here my whole life yeah. So I mean like-

Courn:     I can imagine getting that a lot. I think I mean I would get that a lot too. But people didn't always assume that I was from Korea probably because I was pretty light skinned but they would assume and ask questions like, oh what part of Korea are you from like the good part or the bad part? And it just makes me laugh every freaking time.

Chase:     It's every time.

Courn:     Because I'm just like, obviously, if I was from North Korea, I wouldn't be here. Okay.

Chase:     Think about that folks. Just think about that when you ask that.

Courn:     Also, it's just like, stop assigning moral values, especially as children too that know nothing about I don't know the wars and conflict that have happened in Asia. It's just a weird thing to ask someone. Are you from the good Korea or the bad Korea?

Chase:     It's all within context.

Courn:     Yeah, I'm like, yeah, they're bad.

Chase:     But yeah, but like assigning the moral value to so many things is ridiculous because there is so much context that goes into it. Yeah. And like, what's good for some is not good for others and vice versa. 

Courn:     So can I start asking that about like white people? Like are you from the good white?

Chase:     You should. You absolutely should. Yeah, you should. And then they're going to immediately backpedal. They're like, oh, I'm from Europe. I'm European. Oh, I'm German. Then you-

Courn:     Historically, I think that's the bad white.

Chase:     I was going to say. I was going to say. That's what you should be like. Every time, whenever they try to backpedal and try to defend you should just say, oh so the bad. Every time no matter what, Swedish. 

Courn:     That's how you silence someone.

Chase:     How does it feel to be uncomfortable? Yeah. Yeah. Don't feel so good on the other side, huh?

Courn:     Correct.

Chase:     Okay, I do want to go back to a point that I mentioned about being Hawaiian and like how I would describe that. Hawaii is such a melting pot of different cultures due to the location and obviously like Columbus discovering the island. There's so many like cultures and like bringing different workers and in different like countries sending workers that there is a huge difference and I talked about a little bit a little bit at the beginning of just like local Hawaiian versus like native Hawaiian and what that actually encompasses. Did you know that there's really like a difference in that way, like what do you think of Hawaii as two different cultures?

Courn:     I feel like I don't know if it's just me being uneducated but I just figured there was like native Hawaiians like who are indigenously from Hawaii in some aspect yeah there's just like white people and not actually just white people but predominantly white people that go and live there and have been there maybe a couple generations and are now calling themselves Hawaiian which is a whole other thing. But I think what you touched on it seemed like it was almost like a separate category all together so yeah I'm curious to know.

Chase:     For one thing, I was not even raised knowing that there's like indigenous Hawaiians on the land that's like completely different than like people who were born in Hawaii like let's just talk about that that's just wild in and of itself yeah but like yeah there's a difference of like being from Hawaii versus like being Hawaiian. Like those are two different things, right? Like just like with anything, but I think those two phrases get like intertwined and are used for the same thing when they like really don't mean it. Like I'm not from Hawaii. I was not born in Hawaii. But I'm also not like, like my family literally like if you want to like get technical with the bloodline, it's also not like Indigenous Hawaiian. So I'm like why so then why do I call myself Hawaiian? Right? Like it's like that weird like layers of stuff.

Courn:     Do you know where that family line like came from? I guess I'm curious.

Chase:     I mean it's mostly the Philippines ,a little bit of like Portuguese but like when you look at people traveling like there's you can trace from like my great-grandpa and like people traveling from like ships from the Philippines and like the names of those passengers and like you can trace it down so it's like a lot of like Filipino, really. Like that's probably the most like direct tie but like then those generations landed in Hawaii and then like got mixed in with so many other cultures that it kind of just became this like harmony of cultures like living amongst each other and sharing and rejoining kind of creating this like pigeon of language and food and that I feel like is what has turned into like the Hawaii today that you know of. Totally negating all of the like indigenous aspects of like the food, the language, like you know and all that stuff. So, that to me is like it's so complicated.

Courn:     And I think that's really interesting and I don't know obviously much about Hawaii's history like way before colonization and stuff like how that trail of people comes but I definitely think it's a similar story for like a lot of like Islanders like my spouse they're from Guam and it's kind of a similar stitch where a lot of their bloodlines are actually like Spanish, because so many Spanish people invaded Guam that it actually became part of Guam culture and Chamorro culture, like a lot of like Catholic values, a lot of Spanish foods and even in the language. So like becomes this dubious thing where it's just like, there's people that technically like have these mixed bloodlines of like colonizers or just other people visiting you know from other countries and stuff like there was a lot of like I don't know cross-travel between islands I think people don't realize happened long ago

Chase:     mm-hmm.

Courn:     that's interesting!

Chase:     Yeah, we'll have to do a whole episode on maybe like that breakdown, but all of the islands in the Pacific Ocean that are considered in that group are even broken into like smaller groups, right? You've got your like Micronesia, Melanesia, Pacific Island, which horrible names in and of itself. We're going to go into that another time. But yeah I mean all those like cultures are pretty well tied together. I mean they like traveled a lot right and like kind of broke into different groups. So that's complicated but at the same time it's I like I learned so much more now as an adult learning on my own than my own family taught me and that's a whole burden that I need to unpack and like a sadness that I don't know I have to unpack as an adult. Do you have like a similar thing with yours? Do you have any resentment almost in a way with your family not teaching you certain things?

Courn:     So much resentment. But I mean it's hard because it's just like in my family that was a single person who kind of had the weight because he immigrated here. We didn't have any of our extended family here even though they lived with us for a few years. But yeah obviously didn't teach us the language, didn't teach us the culture, and it just made me feel very behind and made me feel like I had this identity struggle. I felt like I couldn't claim being Korean and some days I still feel like that because I just didn't grow up in that culture. And I'm learning it along with a lot of people that aren't part of the culture. It makes me feel very weird. It makes me also feel like, oh man, if I have kids, like I would want them to know about this stuff. Like, I think it just hurts me that my dad wasn't in a place where he thought that was important or maybe he just was so assimilated that he thought like, oh, I'm doing them a favor by not teaching them this stuff.

Chase:     Right. Cause there's probably a lot of shame at certain generations. That's how at least for Hawaiian for sure.

Courn:     Oh, for sure. I mean, my dad became so Americanized. I mean, coming here in high school, I mean, aside from having like a small accent, you would not think that he was born in Korea, the way he lives his life and the way his values are. 

Chase:     Woof, that's wild. There's definitely days that I'm like, am I really Hawaiian? Like I almost like have to question, I'm like, what? And like, that's so shitty. I'm sure there's more people who've like had that experience too. That can't be just us.

Courn:     No, that's something I think a lot of like asian and mixed Asians or just Asians living in America-

Chase:     in the diaspora in the time I've been using that more often-

Courn:     I feel like that's too fancy for my vocab to use right now.

Chase:     I don't know. It's a good word to use to explain being away from it though. 

Courn:     Yeah. No, I think it's so valid. I just think that's, even though I feel like maybe those, I don't feel like I need my voice prioritized in those ways because I feel like I had a privileged experience growing up in the US and I think in some ways I benefited from being sheltered from that culture it still really hurts not being a part of it. I don't know I think it's just been exciting like us as adults like being able to dive more into this and like have the choice to do it. I don't know it's big for me.

Chase:     That's true.

Courn:     Well, I did want to ask you because we were talking a lot about my microaggressions today. What would be your best or worst microaggression? I don't know. What is a better term best or worse? I guess depends on your point of view

Chase:     I think the like you mean best isn't like almost like most entertaining and like yeah, like so absurd. Yeah, I do have a best one. I don't know like worst ones I mean, I try not to also like think about those and categorize it so I feel like my worst one is not like too exciting.

Courn:     That's okay.

Chase:    I mean I'm gonna go with the best one because I think that's the most entertaining. For context, it's a couple years ago Jess and I were pretty new to dating. We're still you know pretty serious but still in the new phase of relationship. We were out at our friend's house for like a summer barbecue and we were then at their friend's house. So it's kind of like people we knew of through our friends. So we don't know these people. It's a cool party. It's 4th of July. Everyone's drinking, having a good time. They're like, oh, so good to meet you. And they're like, oh, I heard you're coming over to our house tomorrow for the, like the, you know, whatever barbecue or something to like to me. I'm like yeah gonna be so fun, blah blah, and the person's like it's gonna be so awesome it's it's like a big Hawaiian party, we're having like a big luau! Like yeah and they're like literally like oh we got this and like we got like the whatever and so they're like me my wife and our friend we're just in this like oh, what like you can imagine our faces just cringing and like kind of laughing. And the person is so excited. They're genuinely like, oh, it's going to be so fun, like whatever. And then I don't say anything. And then my friend, we pause for a second. And of course, my friend's like, do you want a real Hawaiian at that party too and everyone just like lost it cuz they didn't they didn't realize and so we laugh out and so of course like the person was mortified, which is the correct response, like you should be embarrassed by that. I still tease him about it to this day. It's hilarious because then of course we like I would send them pictures of like tacky Hawaiian decorations and like grass hairs and I'm like, hey do you want this at your next party? You know, like all that crappy stuff. So being invited to a Hawaiian themed party, not knowing that I was Hawaiian was by far the best microaggression ever. But don't do that people, don't do that. 

Courn:     No, tell me you don't know any Hawaiian people without telling me you don't know.

Chase:     Tell me we're in a rural area. So there you go. That's probably the best one because it's just funny. It's cringy, but it's funny

Courn:     That's pretty good. I feel like I don't have like really big exciting microaggressions they're all just like very I think the little things like obviously the ,where are you from from, but I think my favorite-

Chase:     what's your best microaggression.

Courn:     -and how absurd it was was just me at homecoming sitting down talking to a girl just sits down next to me from school that I've never talked to, obviously know their name, a small school. This is the first time I've ever interacted with this person and she goes, so, are you Chinese or are you Asian? And mind you, my now spouse was sitting right next to me, like my very close friend, and we're just looking at them. And like, they were dead serious. Like there was no like bad intention in their eyes. And I just, and I just was like, oh, I'm Asian, but, and then they just quickly turned away. Like I didn't even get to make the point that I'm just like, that statement doesn't make sense. Oh, but I think another one that I, I used to describe as my best, but now I think it's the worst.

Chase:     Yeah.

Courn:     And I know I've talked to you about this one before. Was someone asking me in college what flavor, what ramen flavor of Asian that I was. I'm not sure if they used Asian. I think they just asked like, what ramen flavor are you? And everyone was looking at me and I didn't know what that meant or what I should say.

Chase:     No one was laughing?

Courn:     No, it just, everyone was waiting my response. And I just looked and I just, I said, beef. Which now looking back, I'm like, that actually is not even a good answer. I think pork would be a better answer for Korean. Now that I'm thinking about those popular dishes.

Chase:     Okay. You mean the Oriental flavor is not the best one?

Courn:     Should have been based on what I eat. Should have just been like a soy sauce cause I don't like flavor.

Chase:     Shoyu flavor.

Courn:     But then they just, they didn't even laugh. They just were like...

Chase:     Too serious.

Courn:     Yeah, they're like, okay, okay, okay. What? Sir, why would you ask someone what ramen flavor you are? 

Chase:     In what world do you think that that is like the actual appropriate way to ask someone where they're from?

Courn:     Like I'll give them points because it was like innovative? Innovative? I don't know that's the most interesting way I've been harassed. 

Chase:     It's not funny because they weren't laughing and they didn't have any like pre-established rapport with you. Like if I came in asking you and like, yes, I sometimes will tease you and be like, you want, we're going to go to this Japanese restaurant, the food of your people. Cause this, we have a rapport bell and like we're teasing, but like to dead ass just be like, what ramen flavor are you?

Courn:     Yeah. Also they didn't get any information on it they didn't follow up like what the what the frick does beef mean, respectfully? Everyone just accept that answer and that was the end of the convo and it moved on to something else like there was no information exchanged and that hurts me more.

Chase:     You should have said the ketchup flavor, that would have thrown them off.

Courn:     I should just like what what's what's flavor of corn dog are you?

Chase:     what's ramen?

Courn:     Is that like an American flavor? Corn dogs are also Korean though too.

Chase:    Are you serious?

Courn:     Korean corn dogs. I don't know if that originates in Korea, but I think of like corn dogs a lot in Korea.

Chase:     I didn't know Korean corn dogs were a thing. 

Courn:     I have a Korean corn dog tattooed on my arm. 

Chase:     How have I not noticed that? Okay I'm gonna go get a Korean corn dog now.

Courn:     Let's go.

Chase:     Bye.

Courn:     Bye. 

Chase:     Hey folks, a quick disclaimer here. Courn and I speak directly from our own experiences, and while we try our best to amplify marginalized voices and present accurate information, the thoughts expressed here are definitely not a reflection of all neurodivergent, AAPI, or queer folks. So if you have any suggestions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to email us at hello@neurotakespod.com. Thanks!